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Author Topic: Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG  (Read 5734 times)

Omega

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2017, 03:01:47 AM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;951477
http://dmdavid.com/tag/basic-and-advanced-why-gary-gygax-claimed-advanced-dungeons-dragons-was-a-different-game/

Um... what idiot couldnt see that they were not the same game? They use different mechanics? Basic/BX cleaves closest to OD&D which also obviously isnt the same game as AD&D.

They are though both created from the same basis and underlaying concepts and mechanics. Akin to how Battlesip:Galaxies is obviously neither Battleship nor HeroScape. But uses elements from both. Or more aptly the original Arkham Horror compared to the new one.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 03:16:20 AM by Omega »

CRKrueger

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2017, 10:06:09 AM »
People wanted rules for everything.
People wanted organized play run RAW.
People wanted one way to run D&D.
Gary gave it to them, and some people have never forgiven him for it.

Did Gary go back and forth between "Company Man Gary" and "GM Gary"? Sure, he was inconsistent, and it seems at times annoyed with those who wanted everything spelled out as well as those who then nitpicked about individual rulings.

Some of those articles could get a tad snarky. I imagined Gary thinking "You dumb sons o' bitches couldn't make your own campaigns and run them, you wanted a body of rules you follow 100%, never having to make a GM decision, well jackasses you got it, so shut the fuck up and play the rules as is for fuck's sake!"

Also the fight between Arneson and Gygax probably had a lot to do with it as well, the more different the games were, the less legal standing Arneson had to get cash from AD&D.  He did, but not much.

I also wonder if Gary wasn't making "Company Man Gary" a little bit of a persona on purpose.  That was always some of the fun of the "Gary Jackson" character from KoDT, parodying "Company Man Gary".

Of course detractors aren't ever interested in anything other than quote mining in their eternal quest to prove AD&D was everything wrong with gaming and everything Gary ever said was wrong.

Arminius is also right in that most of the "unusable rules" reputation is vastly overblown.  They are called that by people that never actually tried to use them, they just heard it on the internet.  Except for grappling rules maybe. :D  That is one thing I liked about 2nd Edition.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 10:13:27 AM by CRKrueger »
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cranebump

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2017, 12:43:06 PM »
Quote from: Voros;951552
I would advance the contrary argument that Holmes, Moldvay/Cook and Mentzer's editions actually did more to propagate the D&D system than AD&D. And the sales figues of the Red Box reinforce this. After B/X I would theorize that most 'AD&D' groups were really mashing-up B/X or BECMI and AD&D to make AD&D playable throughout most of the 80s until the arrival of 2e.


I didn't play any form of advanced until 2E (though I had the 1E books--the heaviness scared the shit out of me).:-)
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cranebump

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2017, 12:50:32 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;951616
Of course detractors aren't ever interested in anything other than quote mining in their eternal quest to prove AD&D was everything wrong with gaming and everything Gary ever said was wrong.

AD&D never tickled my fancy, I'll admit that (though I used a lot of it as a reference or inspiration for other stuff). But I'm wondering how much Gygax himself liked it. I think the article Tristram Evans shared does point to the logic behind the development of the system and EGG's promulgation of 'THIS is D&D, and other things aren't (really)." It looks more business-oriented than anything else. You take the financials and bickering away and I wonder whether BECMI would not have been the definitive edition of the game, had they decided to commit to it alone, perhaps porting over some of the AD&D ideas. Surely they could've cobbled together a "tournament edition" for that system, as well?
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Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 12:54:26 PM »
Nice summary, CR.

Personally, I get tired of hearing opinions on the whole Arneson vs Gygax lawsuit from people who weren't even born yet.  I gave a deposition for the suit, don't try to tell me what it was about.

And no, I won't talk about it.
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David Johansen

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 01:52:51 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;951555
Speaking of "Arnesonian D&D", anyone here ever play the David Arneson reaction to Gygaxian D&D Adventures in Fantasy(1979)? I've never seen it for sale, but always been curious about it.

I owned a copy at one point.  I'm not sure it was really playable.  The system was all over the place.  The combat table cross referenced animal types as attack types to give a percentage that was modified by other factors, so you'd have bear verses snake +10 from the rear and such-like.  There was discussion in the rules of the parts that were being left to supplements.  I wonder if the guy I loaned it to still has it.
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RunningLaser

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 04:08:16 PM »
Never got why people gave Gary shit over what he said as a business man versus what he said as a guy.  If my job was at TSR and AD&D was our bread and butter, I'd be hawking it till the cows came home and tell you that it was the best game since the dawn of time and that all other games were inferior.  When I got home I'd go back to playing whatever the hell I wanted to.

Voros

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2017, 04:16:52 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;951616


Of course detractors aren't ever interested in anything other than quote mining in their eternal quest to prove AD&D was everything wrong with gaming and everything Gary ever said was wrong.


No need to 'quote mine' there's pages and pages of his silly rants in Dragon. He even put some of them in the DMG.

I think it is fine to point to his own words to criticize him for often being full of shit. Always good to have some kickback against the cult of Gygax.

Like a lot of designers he would have been better off if he let his best work like Shrine of Kuo-Toa and Vault of the Drow speak for him instead of spouting off.

Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2017, 04:26:36 PM »
Quote from: RunningLaser;951695
Never got why people gave Gary shit over what he said as a business man versus what he said as a guy.  If my job was at TSR and AD&D was our bread and butter, I'd be hawking it till the cows came home and tell you that it was the best game since the dawn of time and that all other games were inferior.  When I got home I'd go back to playing whatever the hell I wanted to.

Way back in 1975 or 1976 somebody wrote in an amateur magazine... maybe "Alarms & Excursions" but I couldn't swear to it ... that "Dungeons & Dragons is too important to leave to Gary Gygax."

Which, besides being quite literally the most fatuous thing I have ever heard in my life, is proof that people bitching about what Gary did goes back a long time.
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Voros

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2017, 04:32:04 PM »
Quote from: RunningLaser;951695
Never got why people gave Gary shit over what he said as a business man versus what he said as a guy.


Because adults are usually held accountable for what they say and there are nerds to this day who treat everything Gygax said as Holy Writ? Just visit Dragonsfoot sometime.

Matt

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2017, 04:50:32 PM »
Not sure why anyone would need to be held accountable if he's dead and it's regarding a game he hasn't owned in 30+ years anyway. If you're going to get worked up over hypocrisy, there are hypocrites out there that actually have an effect on your life. As opposed to the best way to pretend to be an elf with a magic sword.

Tristram Evans

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2017, 04:52:53 PM »
I'm not a player of D&D, there's too much of every iteration of the system that just rubs me the wrong way, so my interest in it tends to be merely academic. As such, I don't have any personal investment in the behaviour, public or private, of Gygax except as a curiosity. But after years of the various third party accounts of the history of Gygax-era TSR, what I think is that he was a creative, generous man who was never suited to running the huge business D&D became (thats not saying that his ousting was anything short of a backstab). He was also, like most of us here on the forum, capable of being acerbic and petty in his dealings with pretentious fanboys.

I think Arneson doesn't receive enough credit overall in his role in the creation of the hobby, but at the same time I think there is a tendency to overblow his role in creating D&D as a commercial product. I don't think he or Gygax were necessarily in the wrong, or either totally right in regards to the lawsuit, but I think more than anything its a typical example of the cancerous effect of business and commerce on creative relationships and creative people.
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Voros

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2017, 04:53:15 PM »
Quote from: Matt;951715
Not sure why anyone would need to be held accountable if he's dead and it's regarding a game he hasn't owned in 30+ years anyway. If you're going to get worked up over hypocrisy, there are hypocrites out there that actually have an effect on your life. As opposed to the best way to pretend to be an elf with a magic sword.

To repeat: there are nerds to this day who treat everything Gygax said as Holy Writ. There are two forums commited to this way of thinking. He strongly encouraged rules lawyers with his pronouncements.

On balance this stupidity is minor compared to his other achievements but it is always good to remind people that he was a man, who often contradicted himself and was even clearly full of shit on occasion, just like anyone else.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 05:12:03 PM by Voros »

Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2017, 05:37:32 PM »
Quote from: Tristram Evans;951716
I'm not a player of D&D, there's too much of every iteration of the system that just rubs me the wrong way, so my interest in it tends to be merely academic. As such, I don't have any personal investment in the behaviour, public or private, of Gygax except as a curiosity. But after years of the various third party accounts of the history of Gygax-era TSR, what I think is that he was a creative, generous man who was never suited to running the huge business D&D became (thats not saying that his ousting was anything short of a backstab). He was also, like most of us here on the forum, capable of being acerbic and petty in his dealings with pretentious fanboys.

I think Arneson doesn't receive enough credit overall in his role in the creation of the hobby, but at the same time I think there is a tendency to overblow his role in creating D&D as a commercial product. I don't think he or Gygax were necessarily in the wrong, or either totally right in regards to the lawsuit, but I think more than anything its a typical example of the cancerous effect of business and commerce on creative relationships and creative people.

The jump from "small struggling company" to "multi millions in sales" has killed many a company in many an industry over the years.  In "Ambush at Sheridan Springs" Jon Peterson chronicles the near-bacteriological growth of D&D sales from 1976 to 1981 or so.  That sort of explosive growth is hard to manage in any industry.  It's like the difference between owing a two-stall garage and repairing cars and owning half a dozed garages and spending all your time managing them.

Plus, of course, with TSR it's "A part time shoemaker, a tool and die maker's apprentice, and a CPA attempt to run a company," which sounds like the beginning of a joke.
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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2017, 05:46:48 PM »
Quote from: Voros;951717
To repeat: there are nerds to this day who treat everything Gygax said as Holy Writ. There are two forums commited to this way of thinking. He strongly encouraged rules lawyers with his pronouncements.

On balance this stupidity is minor compared to his other achievements but it is always good to remind people that he was a man, who often contradicted himself and was even clearly full of shit on occasion, just like anyone else.


So quote them Gygax and see how they deal with it. I bet it's going to be fun.
Quote from: E.G.Gygax
Whoa, and I have to think hard about those questions. Generally, I just DMed on the fly, so to speak, and didn't use the rules books except for random encounters, monster stats, and treasure.

when hand-to-hand fighting occurred I usually did that seat-of-the-pants rules--asking what the character was doing and deciding on the chance for success based on the circumstances.

I did not use psionics, generally ignored weapons vs. armor type and weapon speed.

When an opponent was helpless I always allowed an immediate kill if of lower level; otherwise a successful hit killed, a "miss" doing double damage anyway.

That's about all I can think of

Cheers,
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With thanks to DMDavid.com which pointed me to the quote and link in question.
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