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Author Topic: Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG  (Read 8162 times)

cranebump

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« on: March 14, 2017, 01:06:24 PM »
In response to a prickly letter about the "intent" of AD&D (and what the reader considered Lord G's sanctimonious attitude), Mr. Gygax responded with:

"Eric,
You seem to have D&D confused with AD&D. The former promotes alteration and free-wheeling adaptation. The latter absolutely decries it, for the obvious reason that Advanced D&D is a structured and complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide. Either you play AD&D, or you play something else!"

I remember reading that this, indeed, was the original intent behind the advanced edition, to standardize play (for tournaments, was it?). But this is the first time I've seen it in print (because I haven't read enough, obviously).  However, in reading various accounts of EGG's home play, it certainly seemed pretty freewheeling. So, my question to the more knowledgeable among us is, was Mr. Gygax often "playing something else?" Or did he stick to the rules, once said rules came out?

P.S. Semi-related note: In the same issue, there is mention of 1980 convention play, to include an award for Outstanding Dungeon Master for Frank Mentzer, in which Mr. Mentzer says he played "by the book."  For the curious (and otherwise), the issue in question can be found here.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 01:14:38 PM by cranebump »
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AsenRG

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2017, 01:12:41 PM »
My 0,02 EU are tha I remember Gronan saying that after AD&D got out, the existing groups in Lake Geneva, or at least his, picked whatever they liked from the rules, added it to the previous rules, and kept playing. I also remember him saying that yes, AD&D was meant to "standardize" play, although I think he mentioned it in regards to the "tournament modules" and people wanting a competitive form of roleplaying:).

And the cover of the issue you mention announces "a new Traveller adventure", so I think it's safe to say people weren't only interested in (A)D&D at the time;).
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Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 02:04:53 PM »
I think the easiest way to think of it would be that Gary had a "gaming hat" and a "company man hat", and that when he was speaking "officially" of course he'd plug AD&D "as it is."

There were a number of forces behind AD&D, but the need of uniformity for tournaments was definitely one of them.  And in that era there was a HUGE demand for competitive D&D tournaments with prizes.

And yeah, most adult gamers who were playing D&D, not just in Minneapolis, where I was at the time, but in other places, read that little screed of Gary's and said, "That's nice, Cupcake."
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arminius

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 05:39:09 PM »
I'll bet the Company Man was also defending the differentiation from D&D and the "uniqueness" of Advanced because of the Arneson settlement.

There are elements of AD&D that I'll bet were never play tested, chief among them being the grappling rules. Some people claim that the weapon speed rule and the interaction of combat segments with spellcasting are functional but I'd be surprised if they saw much actual use. OTOH the unplayabity of the weapon-vs-AC table is vastly exaggerated today.


Ras Algethi

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 09:22:18 PM »

estar

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 09:54:56 PM »
Quote from: cranebump;951423
In response to a prickly letter about the "intent" of AD&D (and what the reader considered Lord G's sanctimonious attitude), Mr. Gygax responded with:

"Eric,
You seem to have D&D confused with AD&D. The former promotes alteration and free-wheeling adaptation. The latter absolutely decries it, for the obvious reason that Advanced D&D is a structured and complete game system aimed at uniformity of play world-wide. Either you play AD&D, or you play something else!"

I remember reading that this, indeed, was the original intent behind the advanced edition, to standardize play (for tournaments, was it?). But this is the first time I've seen it in print (because I haven't read enough, obviously).  However, in reading various accounts of EGG's home play, it certainly seemed pretty freewheeling. So, my question to the more knowledgeable among us is, was Mr. Gygax often "playing something else?" Or did he stick to the rules, once said rules came out?

P.S. Semi-related note: In the same issue, there is mention of 1980 convention play, to include an award for Outstanding Dungeon Master for Frank Mentzer, in which Mr. Mentzer says he played "by the book."  For the curious (and otherwise), the issue in question can be found here.

My theory it was because TSR was deluged with "spam" in the form of dozens upon dozens of letters, phone calls, and direct questions. The sheer volume of inquires dominates many of the antedotes from the mid 70s onwards. Just read Kask's intro to Gods, Demigods, and Heroes. Of course it not the only thing that was considered during the development of AD&D but the rigid attitude about what AD&D is rooted in that issue.

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 01:31:03 AM »
Quote from: Arminius;951474
I'll bet the Company Man was also defending the differentiation from D&D and the "uniqueness" of Advanced because of the Arneson settlement.


I think you've found the all-too-banal reason for AD&D.

Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 01:38:34 AM »
Hundreds rather than dozens.  Possibly even thousands over the years.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

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Gronan of Simmerya

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 01:39:05 AM »
Quote from: Voros;951537
I think you've found the all-too-banal reason for AD&D.

Nothing is ever a single reason.
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.

TheShadow

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 02:04:43 AM »
If you were going to pick a system and say that you must take it as it is, without omissions or additions, then AD&D is one of the more ludicrous choices you could make. Nothing against Gary, there were reasons why that was his official stance, of course.
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Settembrini

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 02:22:43 AM »
While the gist of the consensus is correct, I would like to raise a point:

Namely, that Gary in fact had a point. I am sure, the "company man" in him took that point and overstated it, for the reasons that were mentioned. The point I speak of:

OD&D is very, very, very free in many, many things. So free that it lead to incompatible gaming groups and quickly to RQ, Traveller or Tunnels & Trolls. With AD&D, the baseline was much stronger so that a straight line can be traced from 77 to the release of 3e.
OR, said differently: only via AD&D was it even thinkable to write computer games. For OD&D, the moment people wrote computer programs for it, they drifted the rules and gave life to new rulessets.

Also, the freedom of OD&D truly relied on ressourceful DMs that basically had to be wargamers or worldbuilders of such genius, that one can barely speak of a product. It was more like an inspirational tool for the gifted. We can see this very clearly by the failings of many OSR-disciples. Reductionism is strong in many of them, because they otherwise do not seem to be able to understand it. Also, all too many view it through the lenses of Basic D&D and AD&D or even 3rd Edition.

So, AD&D as a product as a structured set of ideas is much, much, much more stable than Arnesionian D&D ever could be. For better or worse.
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Voros
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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 02:37:59 AM »
I would advance the contrary argument that Holmes, Moldvay/Cook and Mentzer's editions actually did more to propagate the D&D system than AD&D. And the sales figues of the Red Box reinforce this. After B/X I would theorize that most 'AD&D' groups were really mashing-up B/X or BECMI and AD&D to make AD&D playable throughout most of the 80s until the arrival of 2e.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 02:46:32 AM by Voros »

Tristram Evans

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 02:53:54 AM »
Speaking of "Arnesonian D&D", anyone here ever play the David Arneson reaction to Gygaxian D&D Adventures in Fantasy(1979)? I've never seen it for sale, but always been curious about it.

Omega

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Dragon #43: Interesting response from EGG
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 02:59:24 AM »
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951439
And yeah, most adult gamers who were playing D&D, not just in Minneapolis, where I was at the time, but in other places, read that little screed of Gary's and said, "That's nice, Cupcake."


Its bemusing on another level as the Dragon commentary contradicts the actual notes in the AD&D DMG. Did Gary forget that he wrote "Change stuff!" in there? Guess so. ahem.