Quote from: S'mon;951863IME "Basic D&D" was ignored as a "kids' game" by most teenage D&D players. But in hindsight we left out so much of AD&D that in practice it played pretty much like B/X, just with race & class split.

For sure, many many people were introduced to D&D by B/X or the Red Box and carried what they learned about the mechanics into their 'Advanced' games. I remember playing 'AD&D' for years and one day actually reading the 1e DMG combat section and realizing it had a bunch of clumsy rules we never used.

Quote from: Voros;951865I have no idea what 'Gygaxian' mode of play means and doubt I want to know.

I described it just above: Referee plus some players (without miniature wargaming campaign as centre of attention) vs. the Twin Cities setup within a wargaming club.

Quote from: Settembrini;951754Yes, but the D&D Basic boxes were post-AD&D. Really, if you go from reading OD&D and then the 1e DMG and then any of the basic boxes, it becomes quite obvious. OD&D is a different beast altogether, which most people cannot wrap their head around because of exposure to other editions.

Er... B and AD&D came out in the same year. But AD&D was not complete untill nearly 2 years later.

Quote from: Settembrini;951870I described it just above: Referee plus some players (without miniature wargaming campaign as centre of attention) vs. the Twin Cities setup within a wargaming club.

You DO realize you're responding to somebody whose main schtick is to go into threads about old school gaming and act "too kewl for old school," don't you?

My schtick is hurting your precious feelings apparently. Grow up.

I played and enjoyed 'old school' D&D. My favourite edition is B/X or BECMI. Just because my nose isn't buried in Gygax's asshole doesn't mean I don't like 'old school' D&D.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951439I think the easiest way to think of it would be that Gary had a "gaming hat" and a "company man hat", and that when he was speaking "officially" of course he'd plug AD&D "as it is."

There were a number of forces behind AD&D, but the need of uniformity for tournaments was definitely one of them.  And in that era there was a HUGE demand for competitive D&D tournaments with prizes.

And yeah, most adult gamers who were playing D&D, not just in Minneapolis, where I was at the time, but in other places, read that little screed of Gary's and said, "That's nice, Cupcake."

Well, cupcake wasn't the word we used, another beginning with an earlier letter in the alphabet.  The "company man" Gygax was a major detriment to gaining adherents in my day (late 70's early 80s) and circle, the screeds against other gaming systems and ideas the "company man" went on just drove us to them and we certainly stopped buying new TSR product.  We got the idea of "official tournaments" yah great, but to denigrate other mechanics and games, with straw man arguments and pedantic nonsense didn't do TSR any good.  They were fun reads though, everyone loves a rant especially when written in high Gygaxian.

Quote from: Xanther;951952Well, cupcake wasn't the word we used, another beginning with an earlier letter in the alphabet.  The "company man" Gygax was a major detriment to gaining adherents in my day (late 70's early 80s) and circle, the screeds against other gaming systems and ideas the "company man" went on just drove us to them and we certainly stopped buying new TSR product.  We got the idea of "official tournaments" yah great, but to denigrate other mechanics and games, with straw man arguments and pedantic nonsense didn't do TSR any good.  They were fun reads though, everyone loves a rant especially when written in high Gygaxian.

Sadly, that seemed the general perception of my generation; Gygax was a pompous embittered ass.

It wasnt until much later that a more full perception of him arose. But at the same time, its worth noting, this image was entirely Gygax's fault. The "Company Man Gary" was a failure at any sort of customer relations, basic etiquette and maturity, and a continuously botched Charisma roll.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;951954Sadly, that seemed the general perception of my generation; Gygax was a pompous embittered ass.

It wasnt until much later that a more full perception of him arose. But at the same time, its worth noting, this image was entirely Gygax's fault. The "Company Man Gary" was a failure at any sort of customer relations, basic etiquette and maturity, and a continuously botched Charisma roll.

Let's see how cool you are when you have to deal with the Blumes and Lorraine Williams.

Quote from: Settembrini;951870I described it just above: Referee plus some players (without miniature wargaming campaign as centre of attention) vs. the Twin Cities setup within a wargaming club.

Got it thanks, I'm just sick of the use of Gygax as an adjective for everything, but that actually makes sense.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;951935You DO realize you're responding to somebody whose main schtick is to go into threads about old school gaming and act "too kewl for old school," don't you?

I do not know Voros, therefore I assumed a benign conversation.
I just tried to make my point more clear in case I was unclear before. I have not seen a good refutation of my point, actually I am not sure Voros understood my point. His Avatar makes me slightly suspicious of a case of gaming hipsterdom.

Back to that original point: When Gygax was being the company man in promoting AD&D, there is a kernel of truth in all he says because at first, OD&D was very free-wheeling and the game we know know is ONE road travelled starting from that set of concepts, and for lack of better words I call it the AD&D road.

Many other roads could have (and have) been followed that ended up either as oxbow lakes of individual groups and clubs and some quickly became utterly different things such as RQ, T&T or Trav.

To sum it up: I cut Gary a lot of slack. The only people I feel have a right to be have a negative opinion on EGG are people like the Blumes or his first wife. People who had direct interactions with him, and surely he was no more a saint than any of us.

Back in 2007, during the fledgling days of this here forum, we sort of had the consensus that Gary was doing cocaine during his Hollywood times, even some hints of hanging out at the Playboy mansion were given. Was this ever substantiated? Or an embellishment that I took for real, but was ultimately bogus?

'Cause a coke-head under monetary pressure might write more asinine editorials towards 'the masses' than a cleaner version of the very same person towards his fans.

Quote from: CRKrueger;951956Let's see how cool you are when you have to deal with the Blumes and Lorraine Williams.

According to Peterson it was Gygax who made financial promises to the Blumes he couldn't keep. The internerd narrative blaming the Blumes and Williams for everything is tired.

Quote from: Settembrini;951958His Avatar makes me slightly suspicious of a case of gaming hipsterdom.

:eek:

Quote from: Tristram Evans;951954Sadly, that seemed the general perception of my generation; Gygax was a pompous embittered ass.

It wasnt until much later that a more full perception of him arose. But at the same time, its worth noting, this image was entirely Gygax's fault. The "Company Man Gary" was a failure at any sort of customer relations, basic etiquette and maturity, and a continuously botched Charisma roll.

Well Gary, like most of us, used Charisma as a dump stat.

Quote from: Voros;951959According to Peterson it was Gygax who made financial promises to the Blumes he couldn't keep. The internerd narrative blaming the Blumes and Williams for everything is tired.

As is the tired jihad against Gary and the "Cult of Gygax" the "OSR Taliban" and the other bullshit that doesn't exist.

Ah found the piece that let me think it was sorta real:
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-tangled-cultural-roots-of-dungeons-dragons

also the old cocaine thread:
http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?12864-A-quot-Widespread-quot-Rumor-About-Gygax/page2

@voros: I love DCO, but not as much as to make it part of my online identity. That is reserved for wargames;-)