Sett, you've exactly captured why I dislike the presence skill system, or nearly any skill system, in D&D.  As a guy whose play leans towards mighty-thewed barbarians, the mechanics actively discouraged me from hamming it up and trying to talk through an encounter.  Yet I find that part just as fun as smashing orcs with mighty d20 rolls.

I think we talked a lot about this in the thread regarding Mike Mearls' suggestion to drop mental attributes...

I never had problems with the social skills, simply because I don't use them most of the time. I handle them similar to the perception skills. Most of the time, they're not rolled against directly, but used as a general gauge for the abilities of the character. If the player doesn't talk (or tells me what he watches for), he won't get far.

The rest of the D20 skills have huge uses in Dungeons, IMHO. We're talking about the generic version of the thieves skills, after all. Granted, Craft(pottery) isn't likely to come up very often. But Jump, Climb, Move Silently? Lots...

The "general gauge" concept won't work for me.  I can't remember the ACs of the group from one round to the next.  I'm sure as hell not going to be mindful of who has the best Listen bonus.

Erm, what's wrong with taking notes? I always have a short list with stats that I need to gauge something or that I might roll against without the players knowing. How else would I do the "Hah! Surprise! Ninja Attack!" thing?

Quote from: SosthenesHow else would I do the "Hah! Surprise! Ninja Attack!" thing?

"Hey, there's some ninjas in the next room.  They're totally going to ambush your asses unless you make a DC25 Listen roll.  Oh, the elf made it?  Pointy ears yells something like 'Shit! Ninjas!' just in time for you to roll initiative."

Remind me to never ask you for a surprise birthday party

Quote from: SettembriniWarning, QuiSSBi!
[Quick staccato Settembrini burst of ideas]:

- skills not appropriate for Sword & Sorcery environment, as described by Cali and as endorsed here by P.I.
- skills very appropriate for Traveller environment

I never ever had a problem with skills in Traveller, for exactly the reasons you mention. Although I've swung round to a kind of Robert-Fischerian BD&D approach to CT, such that even Computer-1 means you're professional-level competent.

So, I changed my mind about LBBs 4 through 7--it's them that introduced skill level creep in Traveller. 1-3 and S4 are fine, and so are Paranoia Press's Scouts & Assassins and Merchants & Merchandise (published before GDW's books for these careers).

I haven't looked into the mechanical consequences, though--one may have to lower the 8+ target number.

Quote from: PierceAlthough I've swung round to a kind of Robert-Fischerian BD&D approach to CT, such that even Computer-1 means you're professional-level competent.

I totally agree.  One level in a skill represents four years of work with that skill.  Someone with Brawling-1 has spent at least one term either studying hard or just getting into fistfights regularly.

Quote from: Pierce Inverarity...swung round to a kind of Robert-Fischerian BD&D approach...

What does this mean?

Thanks!

Eric

http://robert.infogami.com/Classic_D&D

Quote from: CalithenaI've been spending a lot of time reworking OD&D for the last couple of years.

Glad I'm not the only one.  I took a different route than you did though.  I made everything available.  I just boiled things down to the skeleton and fleshed it out with my own fluff to make sense to me.  

For example take the cleric class.  Generally, they heal, turn undead, and use blunt weapons.  I threw out my preconceived notions and asked "why?".  This is what I came up with and it's all just fluff.  

Class:  Nemesai - The Unliving.  These individuals are easily recognized by the ritualistic blade cuts across their bodies.  In order to combat the undead, the Nemesai use blades to cut themselves to explore death.  Their understanding of death grants them their abilities.  They are the other side of the mirror to undead.  The use of blade weapons causes their magically healed scars to bleed.

Cool stuff!

I've actually got about 1001 D&D homebrews on my computer and the one I'm talking about here is just the latest. But I never came up with anything quite like the Nemesai as a core class!

I sort of think classes should follow setting, actually. Or another way to look at it is that classes are (a large part of) setting in D&D. But either way, cool stuff. There's a lot of us out there as it turns out...

Quote from: CalithenaI sort of think classes should follow setting, actually. Or another way to look at it is that classes are (a large part of) setting in D&D.

Absolutely!  Every time you redefine a class it redefines the setting and vise versa.  I allowed my setting ideas and redefined character class ideas to grow together.  At times I find myself being a spectator to my own ideas.  I'm pretty sure I couldn't have written some of this from scratch.  

That's my own creative crutch.  It's easier for me to make sense of what's before me than to create it.  Instead of trying to make the system conform to my setting, let the setting spring from the system.  Probably one of the reasons I'm a big fan of random character generation.

Thanks for the words, I need all the encouragement I can get to finish this project.