Quote from: rytrasmi on April 29, 2023, 02:07:28 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 29, 2023, 01:52:15 PM
I don't think it's at all difficult to conceive of a handful of different religious attitudes. In my current campaign, I rely on a bunch of shortcuts because the basis for the religion isn't familiar, but it's been easy to get at least a little attitude.

It's not hard for a player to conceive of either a religious missionary who wants to convert people; or a zealous crusader who wants to kill all heathens. A handful of words can convey these, and then you immediately have two different reactions to Lawful vs Chaotic, compared to your shortcut.

So you use shortcuts, too. One of the several that I used is called alignment. Are we agreeing or disagreeing?

Agreed. The question is how good a shortcut alignment is.

And I don't think that can be answered in the absolute. It depends on the setting and the campaign and what one is going for.

For the campaigns that I've been in, I haven't felt like alignment would have been a useful shortcut. I used it in D&D games mostly in the 1980s, but after that I gave it up. But maybe for some people, it is useful - but if someone finds it useful, I'd want to hear in more detail about how the game was better for having used it.

I think a stumbling point in some discussion is failing to distinguish between having concepts like "law" and "chaos" in the *setting*, as opposed to the mechanics of alignment. For example, the Amber Diceless RPG adapts Zelazny's Amber novels, which have Amber representing a sort of order opposed by the Courts of Chaos. But the game doesn't have alignment rules. One can have law vs chaos or good vs evil in a game setting without alignment rules.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 29, 2023, 07:51:30 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 29, 2023, 07:34:40 AM
Ah, so only the enlightened who self-educate, an elite class of people, can understand the great blessings of alignment compared to the unwashed multitudes.

Gnosticism isn't just for religions, kids.

No.  Only people who have put in a little effort can get it.  In exactly the same way that a random person on the street can't just pick up a few tools and build a nice bookcase from scratch.  It's not rocket science, and anyone that wants to can do it, and you can buy "assemble yourself" versions that will work just fine, and you can even buy fine pieces that someone else has done that exactly match your personal tastes instead of trying to take a hacksaw to an existing piece.

However, if for some reason you really want to "build a bookcase from scratch" there is some level of ignorance that has to be overcome first.  You can sneer about "elite" all you want, but there is a huge gap between "ignorance" and "elite" for people to work.  Moreover, others can't "talk" or "educate" you out of that ignorance, not entirely.  It can certainly help, and is almost necessary in some aspects, but mostly it's getting your hands dirty.  There is a huge part of "learn what the wood wants to do" instead of trying to force it all the time into your preconceived ideas.

I did say one thing wrong.  It is theoretically possible that someone could have a conversation with Vision Storm and eventually get the idea across to him.  However, that person is not me, because I lack the patience to have that conversation with someone who shows no signs of wanting to understand. and has so many preconceived misconceptions in place.  What I should have said instead is that it is unlikely to be a productive use of anyone's time, including his.

Whatever dude. You always do this thing where you refuse to articulate WTF you mean in a discussion, yet somehow declare yourself victorious with a wink and a nod, on the basis that you claim to possess some deeper understanding that you refuse to share with the rest of the class. Then imply I'm incapable of understanding this stuff, like I'm some sort of imbecile, based on nothing but your assumptions about conversations that never took place, cuz you never even bothered to have them. You simply declare how I would react or what I would or wouldn't comprehend if you went down these avenues based on your imagination of what that conversation might be. And we're supposed to accept that you're right and I'm wrong, and I'm too much of a retard to have this discussion despite me being the only one actually making the case for my position while you refuse to make the case for yours, or to refute what I said if there's something wrong with. But I'm sure that I'm the retard in this scenario, and we all just have to bow down to your exalted wisdom in these matters.

*wink*

*sagely nod*

Quote from: rytrasmi on April 29, 2023, 12:54:55 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2023, 06:52:55 PM
Playing a religiously inclined character as pious and devoted to their beliefs =/= "playing alignment". It just means that you're taking an actionable element of your character (their religion) and using it to guide your role-playing, which has nothing to do with alignment per se or even their class (my main character for years was a devout follower of Eilistraee, and she was a mage/sorcerer). And the underlying precept of a character's religion is to follow their god's ideals and what they represent, not play their alignment per se.

In my character's case she tried to set a good example by standing up for the weak and defenseless and helping others, not because she was "good" aligned (she technically/arguably was, though the Good/Evil axis is not my main problem with D&D alignment), but because her goddess aimed to bring acceptance to the drow and guide them to the surface world, so she tried to help the weak, foster an atmosphere of cooperation with other races and live a heroic life with the aim to offset the negative reputation her race had amassed. She was also flirty, sensuous and artistically inclined, given to wild parties and dancing, particularly during celebrations after a successful adventure, because her goddess was also the goddess of song and dance, and patron of bards, and their religious celebrations involved dancing naked or wearing see-through clothing under the moonlight.

None of that last stuff has anything to do with alignment, but it ties to her religion and background growing up with followers of Eilistraee. You don't need alignment for any of that. You just need to know what your character's religion is about and use it during play if it's important to your character.

That sounds like good role play.

How would your character react to the followers of a god that she was only vaguely aware of? They have knives drawn and don't speak your language. You're character knows something about this other god, but you as player don't. I'd argue that alignment would help decide how to role play that.

I'm honestly not sure how alignment would help in this scenario. If I'm dealing with a group of apparently hostile individuals I'm not even able to communicate with due to a language barrier I don't see how this leads anywhere but to some type of violent confrontation regardless of alignment. Even if they're not currently hostile, but just holding their knives out defensively in case a confrontation breaks out I'm gonna need more information about what's going on and what they're doing before making a decision. And there's nothing about alignment that's going to facilitate that. A Comprehend Languages spell might work, though, but I don't think my character has that one.

Even if she "knows" that followers of their god are normally evil she wouldn't just jump them unless they were hostile, because part of the precepts of Eilistrae is to convert evil drow and help them follow a path of cooperation with other races (same would apply when dealing with other evil creatures). And you can't have that if you just slaughter everyone just cuz they're "evil". Gotta try persuasion first.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 29, 2023, 07:51:30 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 29, 2023, 07:34:40 AM
Ah, so only the enlightened who self-educate, an elite class of people, can understand the great blessings of alignment compared to the unwashed multitudes.

Gnosticism isn't just for religions, kids.

No.  Only people who have put in a little effort can get it.  In exactly the same way that a random person on the street can't just pick up a few tools and build a nice bookcase from scratch.  It's not rocket science, and anyone that wants to can do it, and you can buy "assemble yourself" versions that will work just fine, and you can even buy fine pieces that someone else has done that exactly match your personal tastes instead of trying to take a hacksaw to an existing piece.

However, if for some reason you really want to "build a bookcase from scratch" there is some level of ignorance that has to be overcome first.  You can sneer about "elite" all you want, but there is a huge gap between "ignorance" and "elite" for people to work.  Moreover, others can't "talk" or "educate" you out of that ignorance, not entirely.  It can certainly help, and is almost necessary in some aspects, but mostly it's getting your hands dirty.  There is a huge part of "learn what the wood wants to do" instead of trying to force it all the time into your preconceived ideas.

I did say one thing wrong.  It is theoretically possible that someone could have a conversation with Vision Storm and eventually get the idea across to him.  However, that person is not me, because I lack the patience to have that conversation with someone who shows no signs of wanting to understand. and has so many preconceived misconceptions in place.  What I should have said instead is that it is unlikely to be a productive use of anyone's time, including his.

"Learn what the wood wants to do?"

You sound like someone who's only actual experience with 'woodworking' was some New Age arts and crafts class. I am a woodworker (engraver specifically) by trade (and a historian by degree for all the good the paper sitting in some drawer or another is worth) and you're just wrong.

When a woodworker needs to build a cabinet to spec they don't care a wit what dead organic matter wants; that's what tools are for. Only if you squint and tilt your head could you turn something "don't use 1/32" craft wood for shelves" into "learn what the wood wants."

Also I built my first shelf at age five with bricks and boards (stack two sets of bricks against a wall until they're taller than what you want on the shelf. Place board on bricks. Stack more bricks to height of what you want on next shelf. Repeat). It's not rocket surgery.

By the same token your "Pre-Modern Thinking" is just using terminology to sound educated. First, it implies that all cultures everywhere before modern times had identical mindsets about everything.

The elites of various cultures in history with the time to write about such things devised all sorts of divergent philosophies about the structure of the cosmos... usually to justify their own vaunted positions (I'm king because God said so, not because my ancestors were really good at coordinating men to swing swords at their enemies).

Meanwhile, when you actually go reading historical primary souces, the non-elites across history are fundamentally the same in their values as most non-elite moderns; that family is important, keeping your word is honorable, helping others is virtuous (but both are trumped by putting food on your family's table) and keeping your head down lest the elites decide to make an example of you is generally a good idea.

The thinking of every era can understand the thinking of the common man. Our nature really hasn't changed at all in the last 10,000 years, only our tools. The only people telling us it should be different are the elites of every generation with their ever recycled "new ideas."

So, I'll ask, the writings of which pre-modern cultures' elites specifically do you think would clarify the sort of "pre-modern thought" that would make alignment not something fundamentally rooted in Moorcock's post-modern anarchistic fappings?

Greetings!

Quotation Chris24601
"...fundamentally rooted in Moorcock's post-modern anarchistic fappings?"

*Laughing*

Yeah, a Good Morning indeed. I just poured some fresh coffee, and this made me laugh.

I still like using Alignment, though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2023, 10:39:10 AM
Greetings!

Quotation Chris24601
"...fundamentally rooted in Moorcock's post-modern anarchistic fappings?"

*Laughing*

Yeah, a Good Morning indeed. I just poured some fresh coffee, and this made me laugh.

I still like using Alignment, though.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Glad you liked it.

The biggest divorce from normal theology/worldviews in Moorcock is the essentially applying anarchist theory that anyone with power is de facto corrupt, ergo absolute law or chaos must be evil. D&D ended up slapping this same "opposing forces that must be in balance for the cosmos to the principles of good and evil.

Both of those are a completely modernist relativist take... a scale with positive and negative values on an axis with net 0 as the ideal "balanced" position.

The normal view (pre-modern or present day outside those overeducated to the point of idiocy) would be a 0-10 scale with chaos/evil as merely the absence of order/good respectively. They weren't opposed forces... they were shortfalls of what society considered an absolute good.

It may seem silly as the scale still runs good to evil in a sense, but there's a real difference in mindset between equal opposites and one as just the absence of the other.

Quote from: jhkim on April 29, 2023, 01:16:44 PM

D&D alignment originally came out of modern science fiction writers Poul Anderson and Michael Moorcock with its primal forces of Law vs Chaos. AD&D alignment is an original development out of these. I find both OD&D and AD&D alignment to be heavily rooted in a combination of a modern Abrahamic viewpoint and science. Having just read Poul Anderson's Three Hearts and Three Lions, I found it very close to the core of D&D. There's scientific interpretation of medieval concepts -- like dragon thermodynamics, radioactive cursed gold, and ultraviolet sensitivity explaining aversion to sunlight -- and its cosmology is also a sci-fi based. It does elevate medieval views and Carolingian paladins, so I'd think it's fair to say that it isn't Modernist or Pre-modernist in style, but it's certainly post-Romanticism.

Funny, I just reread both Three Hearts and Three Lions as well as the Broken Sword.  I don't agree with your interpretation of Anderson.  The main viewpoint character is bring some of that, yes, because in both cases he's the reader identification character.  More so in the Broken Sword than even the other.  The character growth during the story is away from that viewpoint.

As for Moorcock, his writing is too shallow for me to comment further.

Quote from: Chris24601 on April 30, 2023, 08:48:10 AM
You sound like someone who's only actual experience with 'woodworking' was some New Age arts and crafts class. I am a woodworker (engraver specifically) by trade (and a historian by degree for all the good the paper sitting in some drawer or another is worth) and you're just wrong.

I've done wood working all my life.  Practical woodworking with finished pieces that people use, with even less tolerance for art than any kind of craving.  Once again, you are just wrong.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 29, 2023, 10:15:26 PM

Whatever dude. You always do this thing where you refuse to articulate WTF you mean in a discussion, yet somehow declare yourself victorious with a wink and a nod, on the basis that you claim to possess some deeper understanding that you refuse to share with the rest of the class.

Funny, you always do this thing where you rant on some game artifact like you are a god's gift to game design while showing that you don't understand at all what you are discussing.  Then after you make a bunch of unsupported assertions that you pull out of your posterior, for every objection that gets made, you want "proof" while being willfully obtuse to any argument made.  Which is why in your case, on these kinds of subjects, there's no point in doing anything more than contradicting you.  Show a little self-awareness in your rants, and I'll give you an argument instead of dismissing the rant.

Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to explain it further?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 30, 2023, 11:33:11 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 29, 2023, 10:15:26 PM

Whatever dude. You always do this thing where you refuse to articulate WTF you mean in a discussion, yet somehow declare yourself victorious with a wink and a nod, on the basis that you claim to possess some deeper understanding that you refuse to share with the rest of the class.

Funny, you always do this thing where you rant on some game artifact like you are a god's gift to game design while showing that you don't understand at all what you are discussing.  Then after you make a bunch of unsupported assertions that you pull out of your posterior, for every objection that gets made, you want "proof" while being willfully obtuse to any argument made.  Which is why in your case, on these kinds of subjects, there's no point in doing anything more than contradicting you.  Show a little self-awareness in your rants, and I'll give you an argument instead of dismissing the rant.

Whatever you need to tell yourself in your imaginary discussion against me and all my unsupported assertions and misunderstood views that you have yet to point out or refute in this or any order occasion you've made this delusional claim.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 30, 2023, 11:33:11 AM
Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to explain it further?

You would need to provide an explanation first before you're able to do it further. But all you've done so far is make a lot of claims without a single quote or example of WTF you're talking about, and prove that you don't know the difference between empty claims and arguments or explanations.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on April 30, 2023, 11:33:11 AM
Is that clear enough for you, or do I need to explain it further?

It might help if you actually clarified what the heck you mean by "Pre-Modern Thought" to something actually actionable.

Pre-Modern is every culture across the entire planet and 5000 years of recorded history. Are you REALLY saying the people of the 1st Dynasty in Egypt thought identically to the people of 16th Century Japan or the still uncontacted tribes of the Amazon?

Really?

If not then how about at least a place and a century where something resembling Alignment would be the predominant line of thinking?

If you can't even give that I can only conclude you're full of shit and covering up being called on it with bluster.

Greetings!

Gee whiz! The vitriol and hate! *Laughing*

I just use Alignment as a shorthand for religious affiliation, moral values, temperament, and general tendencies. That seems to me what the intention for the Alignment system in D&D was created for.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2023, 01:51:32 PMI just use Alignment as a shorthand for religious affiliation, moral values, temperament, and general tendencies. That seems to me what the intention for the Alignment system in D&D was created for.

What I would posit, is that it's just not a very good one. Is a Barbarian with a personal code of avoiding orderly civilization Chaotic or Lawful?
I posit, that if this mechanic wasn't part of Classic D&D, and if the OSR crowd didn't approach Classic D&D as sacrosanct, it would have been dumped a long time ago. Sine Nominee dumped it, yet its still a OSR darling (probably for being innovative and avoiding sacred cows).

In general people don't walk around with cosmic morality compasses dictating some specific way they're *supposed* to act in every given situation where a GM is supposed to adjudicate on it whether it's "appropriate".

IF that's not the case, then what point does it serve?

Give me codes of conduct, creeds, and religious laws for appropriate PC/NPC/Culture needs. I'll handle all the cosmic shit in the background. Yes I'll stipulate there are times where it *might* matter. 99% of time it doesn't.

Play your character, if you want act like a "chaotic evil" fuckhead, the world will react accordingly. I don't need to have PC's looking at Scarlet Letters over their head to justify themselves.

Alignment is for world-building the vast majority of the time. When it isn't - you've entered a rarified world of Gods and their shennigans.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 29, 2023, 10:17:24 PM
I'm honestly not sure how alignment would help in this scenario. If I'm dealing with a group of apparently hostile individuals I'm not even able to communicate with due to a language barrier I don't see how this leads anywhere but to some type of violent confrontation regardless of alignment. Even if they're not currently hostile, but just holding their knives out defensively in case a confrontation breaks out I'm gonna need more information about what's going on and what they're doing before making a decision. And there's nothing about alignment that's going to facilitate that. A Comprehend Languages spell might work, though, but I don't think my character has that one.

Even if she "knows" that followers of their god are normally evil she wouldn't just jump them unless they were hostile, because part of the precepts of Eilistrae is to convert evil drow and help them follow a path of cooperation with other races (same would apply when dealing with other evil creatures). And you can't have that if you just slaughter everyone just cuz they're "evil". Gotta try persuasion first.

This is your character so I can't argue about what she'd do.

I'm a simple guy. I see two different baskets of options when presented with these two scenarios:

A - Robed figures speaking strange language, knives in hand. Their deity shares my deity's alignment.

B - Robed figures speaking strange language, knives in hand. Their deity opposes my deity's alignment.

You're saying you would take the same approach in both situations. Okay, fair enough, that's how you roll. But it seems not that you find alignment useless. Rather, you choose to make alignment useless.