I had this brainfart this morning while driving to work this morning.

Rogue trap skills are usually reactive, dealing with traps others have left, but what about a proactive rogue, setting up traps for enemies?

If you can take it apart, you should know how to put it together in the first place.

Would they learn different types of traps as they levelled up... kinda like spells? Would what traps they could make detemine what taps they could disarm?

Quote from: Ratman_tf;980468Rogue trap skills are usually reactive, dealing with traps others have left, but what about a proactive rogue, setting up traps for enemies?

It would make the Thieves Guild that high level rogue/thieves are supposed to get/build/takeover more interesting if the PC was actually creating the traps that guarded the secret entrances to the Thieves Guild.

Quote from: Simlasa;980513Would they learn different types of traps as they levelled up... kinda like spells? Would what traps they could make detemine what taps they could disarm?

I have some ideas along those lines. I wanted to see if anyone else could help me brainstorm off the original idea.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;980577I have some ideas along those lines. I wanted to see if anyone else could help me brainstorm off the original idea.

This was actually included in one of the first D&D variants, Warlock from 1978. This was the variant of D&D that was played by the California Institute of Technology gaming group in Pasadena less than a year after the release of the Whitebox. Warlock thieves were just like regular D&D thieves for open lock pickpocket, like that, but they had some additional very interesting perks so they would be more valuable to the party as a whole, especially at higher levels. Now Thieves had a special place in Warlock. As they leveled their characters, the players could pick new thieving abilities each and every time, or improve abilities they already had. Here is an example;

First Level Thief Abilities
==================
Detect Evil
Detect Good
Detect Magic
Evaluate Treasure
Jimmy Portals
Pick Most Locks 2/3
Dagger +2
Short Sword +2
Sling +2
Sure Strike, Dagger (x3)
Detect Noise +1/6
Hide in Shadows 50%
Jam Portals
Move More Silently +1/6
Spot Hidden Items +1/6
Cheat at Game of Skill (90% chance of success and will add 1/6 increased probability to his/her chance of winning)
Sleight of Hands (80%)
Pilfer from backpacks/Saddlebags (50%)
Lie Convincingly (+4 to effective Charisma while dealing with any sititaion)
Map Deciphering
Read 1 Extra Language
Start Fires
Tie up with Rope

The Thievish Advancement Tables lists just how many total abilities a thief may have at any experience level. For example, a Fifth Level thief has five first level, Two second level, and one third level ability. Upon going to Sixth Level, he gains 1 second, 1 third, and 1 4th level ability. He may choose these from any of the listed abilities of those levels, but he must meet the prerequisites listed for each ability, whether by meeting certain physical Standards of characteristics or by having a certain lower level ability that has trained him for the new ability he wants to take.


My Notes Here;
Multi-Class Thief characters get these abilities when they take a level in thief. Some of the abilities require material (lockpicks, rope, etc.). A Sixth Level Thief Ability is specifically Thief Trap Setting which is specifically designed so that thieves can trap and kill other thieves

Thief Trap Setting
This ability allows a thief to design and build a trap that is designed to trap someone ordinarily able to circumvent normal traps, with a base 50% chance of avoiding circumvention, adjusting 5% per level for the relative levels of the thief setting the trap and the thief trying to circumvent it. Thus a Thief of the 20th level would have a 65% chance of trapping a 17th level trying to circumvent it.

More of my Notes here;
So, ...with this ability, not only could a thief set a trap using their intelligence modifier (basic 5% chance per point of INT for success in setting the trap) for all the muggles (i.e. fighters, wizards, clerics, commoners)  that would automatically be triggered when the muggles walked, ran, or passed through the trap "trigger" areas,, but high level thieves could specifically set traps cleverly designed to snare lower level thieves, and sometimes even higher level thieves than themselves.  Using these rules a 10th level thief could set a trap that automatically snare a muggle, and also that had a 40% chance of trapping a 12th level thief , and 30% chance of trapping a 14th level thief, and 20% chance of trapping a 16th level thief, and even a 1% chance of successfully trapping another 20th level thief.

To summarize our gaming group/club house rules on this; Anyone could successfully set a trap based on making a percentile roll less than 5xINT. If the trap was unsuccessfully set, it was still there, but could be spotted by anyone including non-thieves, and the trap would not function if triggered. Thieves of course, had an inherent ability to find and remove traps as outlined in Greyhawk, and using the Warlock rules high level thieves could set extra devious traps that even seasoned trap finding thieves would possibly be vulnerable to. Thieves in Warlock could use this special Thief Trap Setting ability beginning when they attained 13th level.

Quote from: GameDaddy;980591This was actually included in one of the first D&D variants, Warlock from 1978. This was the variant of D&D that was played by the California Institute of Technology gaming group in Pasadena less than a year after the release of the Whitebox. Warlock thieves were just like regular D&D thieves for open lock pickpocket, like that, but they had some additional very interesting perks so they would be more valuable to the party as a whole, especially at higher levels. Now Thieves had a special place in Warlock. As they leveled their characters, the players could pick new thieving abilities each and every time, or improve abilities they already had. Here is an example;

First Level Thief Abilities
==================
Detect Evil
Detect Good
Detect Magic
Evaluate Treasure
Jimmy Portals
Pick Most Locks 2/3
Dagger +2
Short Sword +2
Sling +2
Sure Strike, Dagger (x3)
Detect Noise +1/6
Hide in Shadows 50%
Jam Portals
Move More Silently +1/6
Spot Hidden Items +1/6
Cheat at Game of Skill (90% chance of success and will add 1/6 increased probability to his/her chance of winning)
Sleight of Hands (80%)
Pilfer from backpacks/Saddlebags (50%)
Lie Convincingly (+4 to effective Charisma while dealing with any sititaion)
Map Deciphering
Read 1 Extra Language
Start Fires
Tie up with Rope

The Thievish Advancement Tables lists just how many total abilities a thief may have at any experience level. For example, a Fifth Level thief has five first level, Two second level, and one third level ability. Upon going to Sixth Level, he gains 1 second, 1 third, and 1 4th level ability. He may choose these from any of the listed abilities of those levels, but he must meet the prerequisites listed for each ability, whether by meeting certain physical Standards of characteristics or by having a certain lower level ability that has trained him for the new ability he wants to take.


My Notes here;
Multi-Class Thief characters get these abilities when they take a level in thief. Some of the abilities require material (lockpicks, rope, etc.). A Sixth Level Thief Ability is specifically Thief Trap Setting which is specifically designed so that thieves can trap and kill other thieves


Thief Trap Setting
This ability allows a thief to design and build a trap that is designed to trap someone ordinarily able to circumvent normal traps, with a base 50% chance of avoiding circumvention, adjusting 5% per level for the relative levels of the thief setting the trap and the thief trying to circumvent it. Thus a Thief of the 20th level would have a 65% chance of trapping a 17th level trying to circumvent it.

More of my Notes here;
So, ...with this ability, not only could a thief set a trap using their intelligence modifier (basic 5% chance per point of INT for success in setting the trap) for all the muggles (i.e. fighters, wizards, clerics, commoners)  that would automatically be triggered when the muggles walked, ran, or passed through the trap "trigger" areas,, but high level thieves could specifically set traps cleverly designed to snare lower level thieves, and sometimes even higher level thieves than themselves.  Using these rules a 10th level thief could set a trap that automatically snare a muggle, and also that had a 40& chance of trapping a 12th level thief , and 30% chance of trapping a 14th level thief, and 20% chance of trapping a 16th level thief, and even a 1% chance of successfully trapping another 20th level thief.

To summarize our gaming group/club house rules on this; Anyone could successfully set a trap based on making a percentile roll less than 5xINT. If the trap was unsuccessfully set, it was still there, but could be spotted by anyone including non-thieves, and the trap would not function if triggered. Thieves of course, had an inherent ability to find and remove traps as outlined in Greyhawk, and using the Warlock rules high level thieves could set extra devious traps that even seasoned trap finding thieves would possibly be vulnerable to the traps being set. Thieves in Warlock could use this special Thief Trap Setting ability beginning when they attained 13th level.

Interesting. Thank you.

I have always allowed Thieves to use their class skills to Set Traps and Lock locks at the same chances as the given skills. To me it makes thematic sense and it gives a little extra punch to a class that some consider underpowered.

AD&D 1E DMG p. 20 has this:

QuoteTHIEVES AND ASSASSINS SETTING TRAPS

Simple mechanical traps can be set by thieves or assassins. The chance to do so successfully is equal to that of the chance shown for detecting such traps, but in this case the  assassin operates at an ability level equal to two levels above his or her own and exactly as if he or she were a thief, e.g. a 5th level assassin has the same chance of setting a trap as a 7th level thief does.

Simple traps are those which involve mechanical components which the character setting them has normal access to, such as arrow traps, trip wires, and spring-propelled missiles. Special devices such as poisoned needles, scything blades, and any similar traps with special mechanical components will also require the efforts of one or more specialists -- those required to manufacture the component parts.

Whenever a thief or assassin character desires to set a trap, require him or her to furnish you a simple drawing to illustrate how the trap will function. If the chance to successfully set the trap results in failure, there is a chance of causing injury to the trap setter, just as if he or she had set such a trap off. This chance is rolled for separately and is the obverse of the chance for successful setting of a trap. The drawing of the trap will modify the chances for injury in cases where failure results. Modification can be upwards or downwards according to the complexity and danger of the trap. Note that even with a prepared mechanism for a poison needle, for example, the trap must be set, and failure can result. Gloves or protective handwear cannot be worn when setting such traps.

Finally, failure on the first attempt to set a trap does not mean that the thief or assassin can never set the trap. Unlike other similar thief functions, repeated attempts are permissible.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;980622AD&D 1E DMG p. 20 has this:

Huh. I don't remember that section.

I think coming up with some trap templates would encourage rogues to consider them more often.

Quote from: Spellslinging Sellsword;980622AD&D 1E DMG p. 20 has this:

Like I said, if you can take them apart you can put them together.

In one adventure my magic user was out of darts and the groups thief proceeded to dismantle a dart trap that we'd bypassed and hand me the darts.
"You are now a walking dart trap. Go fourth."

We have definitely allowed disarmed traps to be carried by a PC and set up elsewhere.

I like the idea of a thief ability that specifically allows trap making. I'm not sure how it would be balanced.

You'll probably want to find a good reference book about traps, such as Mantrapping by Ragnar Benson.

Or Grimtooth's Traps.  Lots of fun diagrams in that one.