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Author Topic: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?  (Read 6619 times)

Omega

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2022, 04:09:57 PM »
-A greater number of people countered that hit point bloat was not an issue in older editions of D&D. I'm less than convinced by that, but I can't claim to have extensively played every edition of D&D, so set it aside. I probably shouldn't have used the phrase "bloat" anyway, since that is so thoroughly a matter of preference.

My core point is that as long as you agree with the idea that characters' ability to defend themselves should improve as they level up (which I think most people do), the D&D system only provides two means of doing that: HP and AC. For whatever reason, the vast majority of D&D editions and derived games have chosen to prioritize HP. Whether designers want to tune the players' survivability up or down, they're more likely to change HP than AC. When they do change AC, it seems like its usually just by advising DMs to give out fewer magic items.  As far as I can tell, the way that AC is calculated has barely changed since B/X.

With so many in the OSR world wanting to restrict both HP and magic items, personally I think a re-tuning of the way AC is calculated would be a valuable --if not necessary-- step towards that. It seems like some people agree, too, since there were a few comments of people saying how they'd homebrewed leveled AC into their games.

1: HP "bloat" is not as big a thing at its basics as more than a few want to 'bloat' it to be.  8)
The shift has been where you get any con bonuses and how much and who for. 5e just allows everyone to get full HP bonus from CON and keeps giving HP all the way to 20. Cap HD at level 10 and just allow CON bonus thereafter and it shifts things a bit as late game monsters have alot of HP and can do alot of damage in one shot for certain types.

So changing one element might require adjusting others to keep things from edging towards impossible at the higher ends.

2: 5e went with the idea of putting certain limits on AC. By core game magic armour can not go past +3 I believe. That alone can shift things slightly. Especially as magic weapons have the same restrictions. Some other editions capped bonus at +5, or more.

But keep in mind that in older editions the to-hit range was sometimes different as well so theres that factor.

3: I think too many look at one factor and dismiss the other. Ehich I believe is a major mistake. AC and HP are intertwined with the To-Hit ratios and magic bonuses. It is a potentially delicate web that changing one thread might make part, or all of the weave become unstable or outright fail.

5e is a good example. Change one thing without factoring in all else and the game breaks in ways bit or small. AC works pretty well as is. Gets the job done with as few moving parts as can. I thought I was going to have issues with it. But I ended up liking it quite a bit.

HP is my personal bugaboo. Feels like PCs can potentially end up with oodles of HP if they play their level-ups right. Problem is. The rest of the system more or less is geared around whittling away at oodles of HP. A fireball can fry off an average of 28hp at its base. 45 using a 9th level slot. Two could probably end your average CON 14 wizard. 4 if they kept getting lucky with saves. heh.

Cap HD at level 10 and all of a sudden a single high end fireball or two could possibly take down the same Wizard.

Things to consider. Things I have considered.

hedgehobbit

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2022, 05:39:41 PM »
It's a good point that the higher a roll the opponent needs to hit you, the more difference a single point of AC makes, and worth considering. However, it seems like your math relies on the assumption of low or non-existent attack bonuses. You would need to buff those up to compensate for higher AC numbers, at least in most old school games. 3.x attack bonuses get so high that you might not need to change them at all.

I understand, it is all math. Target Hit points divided by (attacker's chance to hit time average damage per attack) will yield the number or rounds the target can survive. Too many hit points and that number is too high and too low a chance to hit and the number is also high. Because of this, I don't really care if the numbers are high or low. A fight against a monster with 100 hit points when you are doing 20 damage per round will be less of a slog than a fight with a monster that has 10 hit points but you are only doing 1 point of damage per round.

I based my entire combat system on trying to keep this "number of rounds" to a reasonable level as the game progresses. Thus characters do increasing damage as they level up in ratio to their hit points. And spells and traps also increase in damage correspondingly. But it is a complete re-write of the combat system from base D&D.

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Armor as a binary save works perfectly well (see my earlier comment about Dragon Warriors), but it adds another roll to every attack, which I would prefer to avoid. I don't think it should be beyond the wit of man to come up with a system where armor is included in a single attack roll, without making skill irrelevant.

Not every roll. As the number you need to roll to hit a monster is also increasing as they get more hit dice, you really don't need armor saves for the majority of encounters. So I reserve armor saves only for leader-type monsters and monsters that are notoriously hard to kill (i.e. dragons, giant turtles, etc). Your average orc or goblin won't need an extra roll unless they are specifically an elite, well armed force.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2022, 05:49:41 PM by hedgehobbit »

Mishihari

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #32 on: August 15, 2022, 03:51:36 PM »
Yes, but that's only half of it, the other half being the intuitive desire to make higher level characters tougher against physical damage.  If you want high level PCs to survive more physical attacks and want AC to be fixed, increasing HP is the only simple solution.

Eric Diaz

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #33 on: August 15, 2022, 04:36:19 PM »
One curious thing to consider, barely related, is that beyond level 9 in old school games you actually gain HP a bit faster due to decreasing XP requirements. In other words, if XP requirements would keep doubling after level 9, you'd need 12 million XP (I think?) to become a level 15 fighter (with about 80 HP).

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2016/05/some-thoughs-on-level-xp-progression-hp.html

But many things could be done to reduce HP bloat, including increasing AC and saves more often. Even in 5e, a goblin has +4 to-hit and always hits on a natural 20 (IIRC), so you could have a 20th-level paladin with AC 27 and still think twice before fighting a hundred goblins with bows.
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Cat the Bounty Smuggler

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #34 on: August 15, 2022, 05:24:09 PM »
One curious thing to consider, barely related, is that beyond level 9 in old school games you actually gain HP a bit faster due to decreasing XP requirements. In other words, if XP requirements would keep doubling after level 9, you'd need 12 million XP (I think?) to become a level 15 fighter (with about 80 HP).

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2016/05/some-thoughs-on-level-xp-progression-hp.html

But many things could be done to reduce HP bloat, including increasing AC and saves more often. Even in 5e, a goblin has +4 to-hit and always hits on a natural 20 (IIRC), so you could have a 20th-level paladin with AC 27 and still think twice before fighting a hundred goblins with bows.

Interesting! And good work.

That said, I think it's worth considering that the amount of XP you get per monster of equal HD generally trends down as you increase in level.  I've attached what I got if you plot amount of HP gained per monster vanquished for a fighter by Greyhawk supplement rules. Suffice it to say, it's pretty weird.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2022, 05:27:32 PM by Cat the Bounty Smuggler »

SHARK

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #35 on: August 15, 2022, 06:15:34 PM »
Greetings!

A few weapon-modifications providing certain weapons with devastating armour-piercing or armour-crushing properties can serve to open up heavily armoured Player Characters like cans of Tuna being popped with a sledge hammer. War Mattocks, Heavy Maces, Flanged Maces, and War Hammers do very solid work against heavily-armoured opponents.

That is one way to crack that problem, such as it is.

I also restrict the availability of Half Plate and Full Plate Armour. Most Warriors or Fighters, even running into higher levels, have only a 16, 17, or 18 AC. That also doesn't account for magical armour though. Keep AC from getting crazy, and even higher level Characters are again, threatened even by 4th, 5th, or 6th level opponents. Add in a favoured Critical Strike Table, and the threat of even lower level opponents, such as level 2, 3, or 4th level Goblins or Orcs also maintain a formidable threat ability.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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overstory

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2022, 02:25:05 PM »
. . . there's no inherent AC improvement through leveling up (even for fighters). I find it to be a bit immersion-breaking that a character can spend years of their life getting into swordfights, and not get any better at not being stabbed. . . .

There is no support in mythology, folklore, history, or literature for the typical D&D combat style of tanks soaking damage supported by repeated battlefield healing. Imagine a play-by-play: "Look, the knight got bitten by a dragon. The knight is now laying in a clump on the ground. The fight is over.  The dragon is roaring triumphantly. Wait. What's this? A healer has beamed a ray at the knight, and now the knight suddenly stands up and the knight hits the dragon again with the sword! What a crazy turn of events."

When the only strategy is attrition of hit points and the side with more battlefield healing always wins, it isn't simulating anything recognizable.

If you're in combat, avoiding an attack is your best defense. Experienced warriors are better at placing themselves and moving on the battlefield to avoid being hit. Games that provide for this are more interesting than D&D and its derivatives.

Banjo Destructo

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2022, 11:26:53 AM »
Late to the party but I had something to say in responce to the OP.

I don't really think having an AC based system inherently gives you HP bloat,  I feel like having HP gained every level with a careless regard of adding HP every level is how you get HP bloat.

You can have AC based combat systems, they work well enough, and I agree that HP can get too high, so there does need to be a lower max number of hit dice that characters can gain, or a lessened progression.

EDIT: as for some other peoples ideas,  HP was originally supposed to be some kind of exhaustion/luck for you avoiding lethal blows.   Taking 6 points of damage do your HP wasn't supposed to be you getting hurt in combat, it was supposed top represent you expending effort to avoid taking damage or a lethal blow,   with your character going down to zero hp meaning they were finally dealt a strike that hurts them and takes them out of the fight.   So gaining HP from levels IS supposed to represent "getting better at not getting hit" as opposed to gaining AC from leveling up.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2022, 11:29:31 AM by Banjo Destructo »

Kyle Aaron

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2022, 11:43:28 PM »
#1 reason most GMs gripe about hit point bloat is because they can't make up their minds what they even want. Their "preferences" are complete nonsense because they want contradicting things.
Well said. As for other issues with D&D and other games. It's Tigger Syndrome.
 
A greater number of people countered that hit point bloat was not an issue in older editions of D&D.
Most things were not an issue in older editions of D&D - and Traveller, and other games. In most cases game designers get the game as good as it's going to get in the 1st or 2nd edition. After that they usually go the gearhead way, making it overly complicated in order to please the unique special snowflakes and Bitter Non-Gamers.

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My core point is that as long as you agree with the idea that characters' ability to defend themselves should improve as they level up (which I think most people do), the D&D system only provides two means of doing that: HP and AC.
There's a third and fourth: the magic of characters in the party, and magic items. Other player-characters can be tossing around spells to help, and they have more of them at 9th level than 1st. At 1st level you will probably not find some plate mail +5, by 9th level you probably will not still be wearing non-magical chain mail. Those two factors are significant.

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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2022, 10:24:17 AM »
One of the fundamental problems with RPGs is that character advancement is illusory because encounters typically scale with it to maintain a sense of challenge. HP bloat is symptomatic of that.

It's obvious with DCs: as your skill rolls get better the monster DCs increase to compensate, meaning that your chance of success remains the same no matter your level.

ForgottenF

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2022, 12:02:35 PM »
A greater number of people countered that hit point bloat was not an
Quote
My core point is that as long as you agree with the idea that characters' ability to defend themselves should improve as they level up (which I think most people do), the D&D system only provides two means of doing that: HP and AC.
There's a third and fourth: the magic of characters in the party, and magic items. Other player-characters can be tossing around spells to help, and they have more of them at 9th level than 1st. At 1st level you will probably not find some plate mail +5, by 9th level you probably will not still be wearing non-magical chain mail. Those two factors are significant.

AC being so intrinsically tied to equipment is precisely the problem I want to see solved in D&D. A 10th level fighter caught in his shirtsleeves should not be worse at defending himself than a 2nd level fighter who gets to wear his equipment. The means D&D has of representing that is that the higher level character has more HP.

Steven Mitchell

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2022, 12:08:45 PM »

AC being so intrinsically tied to equipment is precisely the problem I want to see solved in D&D. A 10th level fighter caught in his shirtsleeves should not be worse at defending himself than a 2nd level fighter who gets to wear his equipment. The means D&D has of representing that is that the higher level character has more HP.

I disagree on the assertion, though I suppose it falls into what kind of capabilities one views as being intrinsic to a 10th level fighter. 

I want a fair amount of number of opponents matter, and when facing several opponents at once, armor matters a lot, even for the very skilled guy.  the primary purpose of the higher skill is taking out some of those opponents quickly to make the numbers more tenable.  So that particular example doesn't do it for me.

Banjo Destructo

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2022, 12:23:31 PM »

AC being so intrinsically tied to equipment is precisely the problem I want to see solved in D&D. A 10th level fighter caught in his shirtsleeves should not be worse at defending himself than a 2nd level fighter who gets to wear his equipment. The means D&D has of representing that is that the higher level character has more HP.

I disagree on the assertion, though I suppose it falls into what kind of capabilities one views as being intrinsic to a 10th level fighter. 

I want a fair amount of number of opponents matter, and when facing several opponents at once, armor matters a lot, even for the very skilled guy.  the primary purpose of the higher skill is taking out some of those opponents quickly to make the numbers more tenable.  So that particular example doesn't do it for me.

Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.  10th level fighter gets to take opponents out faster than a 2nd level one,  meaning less attacks back at them.

BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2022, 12:31:18 PM »
A greater number of people countered that hit point bloat was not an
Quote
My core point is that as long as you agree with the idea that characters' ability to defend themselves should improve as they level up (which I think most people do), the D&D system only provides two means of doing that: HP and AC.
There's a third and fourth: the magic of characters in the party, and magic items. Other player-characters can be tossing around spells to help, and they have more of them at 9th level than 1st. At 1st level you will probably not find some plate mail +5, by 9th level you probably will not still be wearing non-magical chain mail. Those two factors are significant.

AC being so intrinsically tied to equipment is precisely the problem I want to see solved in D&D. A 10th level fighter caught in his shirtsleeves should not be worse at defending himself than a 2nd level fighter who gets to wear his equipment. The means D&D has of representing that is that the higher level character has more HP.
Doesn't this mean that AC and HP are somewhat redundant to one another?

estar

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Re: Does the Armor Class system produce HP Bloat?
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2022, 02:48:00 PM »
AC being so intrinsically tied to equipment is precisely the problem I want to see solved in D&D. A 10th level fighter caught in his shirtsleeves should not be worse at defending himself than a 2nd level fighter who gets to wear his equipment. The means D&D has of representing that is that the higher level character has more HP.
D&D won't break if you come up with a different way of assigning AC.