Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 02:29:17 PM
Once that sort of technology became commonplace as it was in EP, I would wish with all my heart that I was on earth, being killed instead of transforming into some, genderless, familyless, loveless, sexless, driveless ant-hive mind.

I don't think any of that is necessarily true, but I also think it's irrelevant.

We sometimes say the past is an alien world, to try to encapsulate the gulf between how a medieval peasant thought and lived, and how we live today. It's a staggering difference, and very hard to wrap one's mind around. And yet it's just a social change. A 12th century human and a 21st century human aren't different in any real sense, when it comes to be biology. But the post-human digital minds of the future won't just be different in terms of culture, they'll be different in terms of composition, capacity, and evolution. They'll be different in their very nature. They'll be so alien to us, that a mind of today won't be able to form the kind of meaningful relationship with them, in the way we find so essential, except perhaps at the level of emulation.

Gee...  Jovian really do sound like the good guys.

Quote from: Snowman0147 on May 06, 2021, 03:06:14 PM
Gee...  Jovian really do sound like the good guys.

As I noted before, the treatment of bioconservatism as 'evil' really comes off as kind of absurd when super technological advances caused your planet to get wrecked.

If EP's writers had a lick of sense they'd apply some nuance to this.

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 02:57:40 PM
I don't think any of that is necessarily true, but I also think it's irrelevant.

I'm not sure how what I listed isn't true outside of said transhuman creatures being able to simulate those sensations digitally.

I'm not seeing some magical level of 'next sensation' from these creatures. They don't discover some level of consciousness where a conversation can 'really begin. They seem to be more defined by what they lose in terms of identity than what they gain. If our planet was devoured by a grey-goo swarm, that swarm may be more complex than us as a species, but it's not really more intelligent.

Also, I'm not sure how my personal comment for my distaste of transhumanism is irrelevant because it was a personal statement. It was only relevant to me.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 04:06:05 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 02:57:40 PM
I don't think any of that is necessarily true, but I also think it's irrelevant.

I'm not sure how what I listed isn't true outside of said transhuman creatures being able to simulate those sensations digitally.

I'm not seeing some magical level of 'next sensation' from these creatures. They don't discover some level of consciousness where a conversation can 'really begin. They seem to be more defined by what they lose in terms of identity than what they gain. If our planet was devoured by a grey-goo swarm, that swarm may be more complex than us as a species, but it's not really more intelligent.

Also, I'm not sure how my personal comment for my distaste of transhumanism is irrelevant because it was a personal statement. It was only relevant to me.

You were defining them negatively from the perspective of what you value as part of the human experience. My point is that's only relevant from your perspective not theirs, because even if they're descended from humans, they're incredibly far from what a 21st century human considers the norm. Much further than the widest cultural gulfs in history. Your litany of nots is irrelevant because, to their human experience, those things simply wouldn't be factors.

Transhumanism is fundamentally about the alien. Think of the most alien aliens you can image, like the Visitors of the Strugatskys' Roadside Picnic, or the Quintans of Lem's Fiasco. (If you're not familiar with either, they're probably less approachable than any aliens you've run across in fiction; both stories are about the possibly insurmountable gap between intelligences.) A posthuman human may start off human, but if taken to logical extremes, will eventually be just as distant. That's really the point of the Singularity: Technological acceleration is more a side effect; the root cause is the transformation of how we (to use an all-encompassing version of that word) think into something that's not just different, but incomprehensible.

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 05:01:10 PM
You were defining them negatively from the perspective of what you value as part of the human experience.

.....Yes. That's every statement I, or any other human makes in terms of a value judgment. That's assumed as an underlining element of every judgment I ever make.
Does that make any judgement call - ever, irrelevant? Because somebody made it based on their experiences and knowledge?
That's such a pointless conversation element. Do you end every sentence ever with 'But that's based on what I know and experience and is therefore irrelevant?

If something is assumed to be part of every sentence, you don't need to point it out.

QuoteTranshumanism is fundamentally about the alien.

Right and I (In my personal subjective irrelevant opinion) consider the kind of alien listed to be worse. Just as I can consider being a wasp worse than being a human.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 05:19:33 PM

Does that make any judgement call - ever, irrelevant? Because somebody made it based on their experiences and knowledge?

This is so completely unrelated to anything I said that it's clear we're talking past each other.

I was talking about something far from your human experience. You said that it doesn't appeal to you. I said that's irrelevant, because from the perspective of those beings, it would be. Your perspective would simply be of zero concern. They will live their lives or existences or whatever, by completely different standards and rules. You seem to have taken that personally, and you're drawing negative conclusions that have nothing to do with anything I said.

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 06:10:44 PMI said that's irrelevant, because from the perspective of those beings, it would be.

So whenever somebody brings up that something does not appeal to them you immediately counter with 'But it appeals to somebody?'.

I'm not offended, I'm just confused as to what sort of discussion that sort of statement is supposed to bring.

'Man I hat being stung by mosquitos'
'That's irrelevant because its vital to mosquito reproduction'

I get that the mosquitos or transhumans like the lives they live. I'm not sure how that's relevant to me not liking it.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 06:21:56 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 06:10:44 PMI said that's irrelevant, because from the perspective of those beings, it would be.

So whenever somebody brings up that something does not appeal to them you immediately counter with 'But it appeals to somebody?'.

What the hell? I never said anything even vaguely like that. I said your opinion would be irrelevant from the perspective of posthuman intelligences. That those things you value as part of the human experience? They won't even register in the value system of such a being.

Why is this so hard to grasp? And why are you treating it like an attack?

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 06:26:00 PMWhat the hell? I never said anything even vaguely like that. I said your opinion would be irrelevant from the perspective of posthuman intelligences. That those things you value as part of the human experience? They won't even register in the value system of such a being.

I don't see this as an attack. My response is:

'Yes...and?' My values would not even register for said beings is obvious.

QuoteWhy is this so hard to grasp?

Its 100% possible to grasp.

I think the miscommunication was that I thought you meant me stating my opinion was irrelevant, not that it would be irrelevant to said beings.
The fact that they would find the things I find very dear to be irrelevant would make them moreso abhorrent to me.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 06:58:15 PM

I think the miscommunication was that I thought you meant me stating my opinion was irrelevant, not that it would be irrelevant to said beings.
The fact that they would find the things I find very dear to be irrelevant would make them moreso abhorrent to me.

Sounds like the cause.

One of the more fascinating things about posthuman intelligences is the incrementalism, and it's why I brought up the idea of time skipping -- we can comprehend and even relate to the next few stages in development, but at some point they're going to pass beyond any real comprehension or affinity, at least as long as we remain baseline 21st century humans. But it's also a sliding scale; as we progress along the ladder of posthuman intelligence, more of the future development will become comprehensible and to some degree normalized. There will be a stage where a future human will be able to look back and relate to a 21st century human, while being able to do the same to future posthumans who would be incomprehensible to the human of our era. And so on and so forth: The Singularity will slide ever forwarded, as posthumans chase it, becoming ever stranger. But at each stage, they'll consider themselves human, because there's a continuity, and the changes will become assimilated into the new conception of what makes someone human.

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 07:06:43 PMThe Singularity will slide ever forwarded, as posthumans chase it, becoming ever stranger. But at each stage, they'll consider themselves human, because there's a continuity, and the changes will become assimilated into the new conception of what makes someone human.

I just don't consider the idea of singularity real. Grey goo eating everything - maybe. But I don't believe in this mythical point where if you wire enough machines together all the laws of nature are unlocked and you become a supreme godlike being.

To me, it feels like a form of science worship. The rapture for the modern age.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 07:13:35 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 07:06:43 PMThe Singularity will slide ever forwarded, as posthumans chase it, becoming ever stranger. But at each stage, they'll consider themselves human, because there's a continuity, and the changes will become assimilated into the new conception of what makes someone human.

I just don't consider the idea of singularity real. Grey goo eating everything - maybe. But I don't believe in this mythical point where if you wire enough machines together all the laws of nature are unlocked and you become a supreme godlike being.

To me, it feels like a form of science worship. The rapture for the modern age.

I enjoy EP, 1st ed as I've never looked at 2 (lack of space/money), but I always have questioned the Singularity.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on May 06, 2021, 07:13:35 PM

Quote from: Pat on May 06, 2021, 07:06:43 PMThe Singularity will slide ever forwarded, as posthumans chase it, becoming ever stranger. But at each stage, they'll consider themselves human, because there's a continuity, and the changes will become assimilated into the new conception of what makes someone human.

I just don't consider the idea of singularity real. Grey goo eating everything - maybe. But I don't believe in this mythical point where if you wire enough machines together all the laws of nature are unlocked and you become a supreme godlike being.

To me, it feels like a form of science worship. The rapture for the modern age.

As I explained, that's not how I'm using the term Singularity. I'm referring to the cultural shift, to the mental shift, where something transitions from human to alien. As I pointed out, it's a sliding scale. There will be no clear transition, and posthuman intelligences at difference stages will see the Singularity at different places, and looking back, will be able to have greater or lesser degrees of affinity and sympathy with baseline humans, as they progress along the scale. And specifically in the context of superhuman intelligences, it's likely there will be a stage where regular human intelligences can't keep up. So it's not just about the alien, but about thinking beings thinking in ways that are beyond a standard human's ability, and not just in superficial ways like the ability to do arithmetic really fast.

And that's not really a good description of a technological singularity, either. It's not about unlocking the last secret of nature or some form of rapture, it's about technology moving too fast and transforming the world in ways we won't be able to predict or even understand. It's more about the limitations of what we can see and really grasp in the present, and the restrictions that places on our ability to grok what the future will become, than about the future.

Also, a point to remember is that event horizons are only opaque from one side.  Or, to put it another way, the technological singularity has already happened, repeatedly; the assert of the Singularity is that there will come a point where what comes after us will be to us as we are to early hominids, or early mammals, or just single-celled life in general.

And it's certainly not necessarily true; no exponential curve continues infinitely in the actual universe.  We may actually be as good as it gets.  But if you extrapolate from historic trends, it's not likely.