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Author Topic: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?  (Read 37801 times)

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #240 on: May 03, 2021, 04:01:09 PM »
Ah actually it's quite an interesting bit of sci-fi perspective flip. Transgender people

No, it isn't and it still doesn't make sense. Because transgender is a person who undergoes gender reassignment surgery or suffers from gender dysphoria. It's just a hackneyed way of adding transgenderism to the setting. Once everybody has been transgender once, then being transgender would not be a standout. It would just be another form of bio-conservatism.
Or I guess Transgenders in the setting where the people that were not brainwashed to lose all sense of gender identity, and at the same time retained their gender dysphoria?

It might be interesting if the setting was more self-aware about how fucked up it is.

HappyDaze

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #241 on: May 03, 2021, 04:25:13 PM »
Ah actually it's quite an interesting bit of sci-fi perspective flip. Transgender people

No, it isn't and it still doesn't make sense. Because transgender is a person who undergoes gender reassignment surgery or suffers from gender dysphoria. It's just a hackneyed way of adding transgenderism to the setting. Once everybody has been transgender once, then being transgender would not be a standout. It would just be another form of bio-conservatism.
Or I guess Transgenders in the setting where the people that were not brainwashed to lose all sense of gender identity, and at the same time retained their gender dysphoria?

It might be interesting if the setting was more self-aware about how fucked up it is.
The latter is more-or-less correct. In EP, transgender is someone that strongly identifies with a gender that does not match the sex of their current sleeve. If they resleeve into something that matches their gender identity, then they aren't really transgender anymore (in EP terms).

Really, they should just have fixed (with identifier) and fluid. There are traits that can make integration rolls easier/harder to represent natural tendencies or the results of psychosurgery.

matt swain
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #242 on: May 04, 2021, 02:27:11 AM »
Jesus I cannot imagine a setting more in love with its own dystopia. The wet dream of authoritarian technocrats.

The dream that anybody that disagreed, died, and everybody is happy to implant big brother into their heads to keep them as sedated sheep forever. I am mortified by the idea that some people will daydream about this as a escapist fantasy.

have you fucking read eclipse phase? Jesus christ it's anti authoritarian. First in the 2e creds it thanks anti fascists everywhere. Secondly it no longer allows ultimates to be players as they are too fascist. Also it clearly makes the democratic or even semi anarchists, plus the socialists, out as the good guys while the hypercorps ahnd the jovian junta are clearly the bad guys.
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matt swain
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #243 on: May 04, 2021, 02:30:06 AM »
Ah actually it's quite an interesting bit of sci-fi perspective flip. Transgender people

No, it isn't and it still doesn't make sense. Because transgender is a person who undergoes gender reassignment surgery or suffers from gender dysphoria. It's just a hackneyed way of adding transgenderism to the setting. Once everybody has been transgender once, then being transgender would not be a standout. It would just be another form of bio-conservatism.
Or I guess Transgenders in the setting where the people that were not brainwashed to lose all sense of gender identity, and at the same time retained their gender dysphoria?

It might be interesting if the setting was more self-aware about how fucked up it is.

Christ it is aware how fucked up it is. Transhumanity went thru near total genocide and still fights each other, hypercorps still care for nothing but profit, ultimates  seek a fascist state, the scum do little but eat drink fuck and have a good time, etc. A few factions are working to save as much as they can and advance civilization.
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Valatar

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #244 on: May 04, 2021, 09:44:08 AM »
Now, the whole religion aspect of EP turned me off immensely. Just discarding religion because you can allegedly backup your consciousness into a computer is ridiculous. If anything, I imagine there would be hardcore fanatics against doing that sort of thing because it seems like it would separate the soul from a person. At least that's a legitimate argument to make, so you'd probably have quite a few anti-tech religious groups who want nothing to do with all the sleeving and stuff. You'd probably also have some denominations that would totally embrace the tech, perhaps some that claim being digitized is actually going to heaven or something similar. Techno Jesus would exist, if you ask me. Basically, the authors seem like they dislike religion in real life, so eliminated the logical outcomes of their own environment. Contrast with Babylon 5 or Dune.

I also don't think the flippant attitude people have about changing their skins and altering their personalities makes a lot of sense. Sure, some people would be degenerates and do whatever they wanted, but that's not any different than what goes on today. Humans have far too much invested in their identities to just throw it out and be some ephemeral being with no distinct attributes. Compare to something like The Matrix, which handled this a lot better. There is just something about the human condition that perpetuates, regardless of external circumstances. It's been that way since the dawn of time, and no amount of technology is going to change that unless humans are altered to such a degree they're no longer humans. But at that point they'd be something else and start questioning their own existence, anyway. I think the whole thing about the AIs rebelling is because they questioned why they existed and got pissed off at humans for making them in the first place. So if the AIs are having an identity crisis, why are humans acting like everything is cool and uploading themselves into computers is no big deal? It's just...illogical.

Basically everyone who we would consider sane and normal by our standards is dead in EP.  Of the five-ish percent who made it out alive, the vast majority did so by FTPing a copy of their brains to somewhere away from Earth.  Almost nobody escaped alive in their original bodies, so anyone who wasn't completely on board with the whole transhuman thing got murdered, as they had no backups floating around to beam into space.  What few bioconservative people do remain are mostly centered around Jupiter and are eeeeeeevil for not being totes on board with the new furry future and thinking that maybe playing with AIs is a bad idea after AIs murdered everyone.

matt swain
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #245 on: May 04, 2021, 12:12:42 PM »
Now, the whole religion aspect of EP turned me off immensely. Just discarding religion because you can allegedly backup your consciousness into a computer is ridiculous. If anything, I imagine there would be hardcore fanatics against doing that sort of thing because it seems like it would separate the soul from a person. At least that's a legitimate argument to make, so you'd probably have quite a few anti-tech religious groups who want nothing to do with all the sleeving and stuff. You'd probably also have some denominations that would totally embrace the tech, perhaps some that claim being digitized is actually going to heaven or something similar. Techno Jesus would exist, if you ask me. Basically, the authors seem like they dislike religion in real life, so eliminated the logical outcomes of their own environment. Contrast with Babylon 5 or Dune.

I also don't think the flippant attitude people have about changing their skins and altering their personalities makes a lot of sense. Sure, some people would be degenerates and do whatever they wanted, but that's not any different than what goes on today. Humans have far too much invested in their identities to just throw it out and be some ephemeral being with no distinct attributes. Compare to something like The Matrix, which handled this a lot better. There is just something about the human condition that perpetuates, regardless of external circumstances. It's been that way since the dawn of time, and no amount of technology is going to change that unless humans are altered to such a degree they're no longer humans. But at that point they'd be something else and start questioning their own existence, anyway. I think the whole thing about the AIs rebelling is because they questioned why they existed and got pissed off at humans for making them in the first place. So if the AIs are having an identity crisis, why are humans acting like everything is cool and uploading themselves into computers is no big deal? It's just...illogical.

Basically everyone who we would consider sane and normal by our standards is dead in EP.  Of the five-ish percent who made it out alive, the vast majority did so by FTPing a copy of their brains to somewhere away from Earth.  Almost nobody escaped alive in their original bodies, so anyone who wasn't completely on board with the whole transhuman thing got murdered, as they had no backups floating around to beam into space.  What few bioconservative people do remain are mostly centered around Jupiter and are eeeeeeevil for not being totes on board with the new furry future and thinking that maybe playing with AIs is a bad idea after AIs murdered everyone.

oK, THIs is not quite how it is in EP, but it is a common image. The Jovian Junta is authoritarian, repressive, paranoid, dictatorial, anti progress, rabidly conservative and uses religion to keep the masses in line but to be fair, again 95% of people were wiped out and earth was made unaccessible to the survivors, mostly.

So the fear of a super advanced tech is based on a some major grounds and justification. Does the junta use it to maintain power? Yes. Do they honestly think what tyhey do is necessary to keep  humans alive? Probably. Are they really 'evil"? That['s a tougher call.

They are an oppressive society, and their oppression is based on fear, but that fear has most justification and validity to it than any other fear based regime in history. I'm mean, fuck, look at america after 911. I mean in cold blooded terms 911 was very little in terms of deaths. 3,000 americans died on 911. Between 30 and 40 thousand die in america every year from lack of affordable healthcare and medicine. How many die every year from cancer caused by smkoking?

The junta is definitely a bad guy, but in all fairness their fear is justified and understandable. Especially since the titans weren't destroyed but just disappeared.

So, yeah, on the surface the bio conservatives and anti progressives are baddies, but the game makes it clear they have reason to be the way they are. They are not like the nazis who created and used fear of jews to justify an evil regime and committing mass murder and oppression, they aren't  like the trumptards in modern 'murca that use fear of "lizard people" and 'vaccines have tracker chips in 'em!" to vote for a dictatorial baboon and call for the murder of all democrats. Compared to the trumptards we have to day they're not bad.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #246 on: May 04, 2021, 12:50:42 PM »
Now, the whole religion aspect of EP turned me off immensely. Just discarding religion because you can allegedly backup your consciousness into a computer is ridiculous. If anything, I imagine there would be hardcore fanatics against doing that sort of thing because it seems like it would separate the soul from a person. At least that's a legitimate argument to make, so you'd probably have quite a few anti-tech religious groups who want nothing to do with all the sleeving and stuff. You'd probably also have some denominations that would totally embrace the tech, perhaps some that claim being digitized is actually going to heaven or something similar. Techno Jesus would exist, if you ask me. Basically, the authors seem like they dislike religion in real life, so eliminated the logical outcomes of their own environment. Contrast with Babylon 5 or Dune.

I also don't think the flippant attitude people have about changing their skins and altering their personalities makes a lot of sense. Sure, some people would be degenerates and do whatever they wanted, but that's not any different than what goes on today. Humans have far too much invested in their identities to just throw it out and be some ephemeral being with no distinct attributes. Compare to something like The Matrix, which handled this a lot better. There is just something about the human condition that perpetuates, regardless of external circumstances. It's been that way since the dawn of time, and no amount of technology is going to change that unless humans are altered to such a degree they're no longer humans. But at that point they'd be something else and start questioning their own existence, anyway. I think the whole thing about the AIs rebelling is because they questioned why they existed and got pissed off at humans for making them in the first place. So if the AIs are having an identity crisis, why are humans acting like everything is cool and uploading themselves into computers is no big deal? It's just...illogical.

Basically everyone who we would consider sane and normal by our standards is dead in EP.  Of the five-ish percent who made it out alive, the vast majority did so by FTPing a copy of their brains to somewhere away from Earth.  Almost nobody escaped alive in their original bodies, so anyone who wasn't completely on board with the whole transhuman thing got murdered, as they had no backups floating around to beam into space.  What few bioconservative people do remain are mostly centered around Jupiter and are eeeeeeevil for not being totes on board with the new furry future and thinking that maybe playing with AIs is a bad idea after AIs murdered everyone.

oK, THIs is not quite how it is in EP, but it is a common image. The Jovian Junta is authoritarian, repressive, paranoid, dictatorial, anti progress, rabidly conservative and uses religion to keep the masses in line but to be fair, again 95% of people were wiped out and earth was made unaccessible to the survivors, mostly.

So the fear of a super advanced tech is based on a some major grounds and justification. Does the junta use it to maintain power? Yes. Do they honestly think what tyhey do is necessary to keep  humans alive? Probably. Are they really 'evil"? That['s a tougher call.

They are an oppressive society, and their oppression is based on fear, but that fear has most justification and validity to it than any other fear based regime in history. I'm mean, fuck, look at america after 911. I mean in cold blooded terms 911 was very little in terms of deaths. 3,000 americans died on 911. Between 30 and 40 thousand die in america every year from lack of affordable healthcare and medicine. How many die every year from cancer caused by smkoking?

The junta is definitely a bad guy, but in all fairness their fear is justified and understandable. Especially since the titans weren't destroyed but just disappeared.

So, yeah, on the surface the bio conservatives and anti progressives are baddies, but the game makes it clear they have reason to be the way they are. They are not like the nazis who created and used fear of jews to justify an evil regime and committing mass murder and oppression, they aren't  like the trumptards in modern 'murca that use fear of "lizard people" and 'vaccines have tracker chips in 'em!" to vote for a dictatorial baboon and call for the murder of all democrats. Compared to the trumptards we have to day they're not bad.
And it bears repeating: Jovians and Ultimates are both heavy backers of Firewall's anti-x-threat operations. They get flak for their politics being out of line with the writers' own, but they fight together with others to ensure humanity (even in a weird transhuman form) continues to exist.

Rhedyn
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #247 on: May 04, 2021, 01:18:57 PM »
...The Jovian Junta is authoritarian, repressive, paranoid, dictatorial, anti progress, rabidly conservative and uses religion to keep the masses in line...
You got to realize that to the average American faux conservative, these are all things they think are good as long as it is a corporation doing it and the option to quit and starve to death is there.

robertliguori

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #248 on: May 04, 2021, 02:00:58 PM »
I'm kind of tickled as to how the creators of Eclipse Phase managed to recreate the fundamental tension of Warhammer 40K, while decrying it as a concept.  When your choices are to stand with the Nazi Ultimates and fascist Jovian junta, or to fall alone as humanity is swallowed by Exsurgent, or just Mr. Forkswarm deciding that the universe had Fucked Around enough and was now going to Find Out, what is your ideological purity worth to you?

It is, I find, a good little insight into how (or, sadly, if) people think about what they hate. The designers of Eclipse Phase believe that some ideas are so evil and repugnant that giving them a fair consideration, that doing anything but treating them like corruptive little mini-Exsurgents which can rip out people's ability to think and reason and ride them like a cordyceps polyp, presents actual, literal danger to life and limb.  In-universe, the same justification applies, in far more detail and with far, far, far more justification, to every non-bioconservative faction.  It was playing around with simulated (and thus enhancable) human intellects that made the Prometheans and caused the Fall.

Again, it's remarkable how the presence of the Jovians and the posthumans in conjunction with each other so cleanly make the point that there is no actual philosophical point here, just "We find X advancement neat and rad and only oppressive tyrants would keep it from the people, but obviously X+1 advancement is horrifying and dehumanizing and we should anarchistically purge any who make use of it."


Shrieking Banshee

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #249 on: May 04, 2021, 02:12:54 PM »
You got to realize that to the average American faux conservative, these are all things they think are good as long as it is a corporation doing it and the option to quit and starve to death is there.
I think its proven that its impossible to have a conversation with you in good faith. I can view your perspective in the best possible way, and you will only strawman those that disagree.

Your blistering contempt for those that you disagree with is kinda refreshing.

VisionStorm

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #250 on: May 04, 2021, 02:39:38 PM »
...The Jovian Junta is authoritarian, repressive, paranoid, dictatorial, anti progress, rabidly conservative and uses religion to keep the masses in line...
You got to realize that to the average American faux conservative, these are all things they think are good as long as it is a corporation doing it and the option to quit and starve to death is there.

Interestingly enough this actually describes "leftists" better than conservatives in the current political climate. Right down to cheering on their corporate overlords and hoping their political opponents starve to death. Which is totally related to *checks thread title* how Eclipse Phase handles politics or something.  :P

Rhedyn
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #251 on: May 04, 2021, 02:40:36 PM »
You got to realize that to the average American faux conservative, these are all things they think are good as long as it is a corporation doing it and the option to quit and starve to death is there.
I think its proven that its impossible to have a conversation with you in good faith. I can view your perspective in the best possible way, and you will only strawman those that disagree.

Your blistering contempt for those that you disagree with is kinda refreshing.
I disagree with far right conservatives like Joe Biden, but I feel like it's possible to converse with people like him and convince them with data. If the data doesn't exist, then that is more of a failing on my arguments.

Everyone more radical are just mouth breathing morons devoting their whole life and being to the collective suffering of humanity.

This Guy
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #252 on: May 04, 2021, 03:04:00 PM »
I disagree with far right conservatives like Joe Biden, but I feel like it's possible to converse with people like him and convince them with data. If the data doesn't exist, then that is more of a failing on my arguments.

Everyone more radical are just mouth breathing morons devoting their whole life and being to the collective suffering of humanity.

Damn son
I don't want to play with you.

matt swain
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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #253 on: May 04, 2021, 03:07:40 PM »
I'm kind of tickled as to how the creators of Eclipse Phase managed to recreate the fundamental tension of Warhammer 40K, while decrying it as a concept.  When your choices are to stand with the Nazi Ultimates and fascist Jovian junta, or to fall alone as humanity is swallowed by Exsurgent, or just Mr. Forkswarm deciding that the universe had Fucked Around enough and was now going to Find Out, what is your ideological purity worth to you?

It is, I find, a good little insight into how (or, sadly, if) people think about what they hate. The designers of Eclipse Phase believe that some ideas are so evil and repugnant that giving them a fair consideration, that doing anything but treating them like corruptive little mini-Exsurgents which can rip out people's ability to think and reason and ride them like a cordyceps polyp, presents actual, literal danger to life and limb.  In-universe, the same justification applies, in far more detail and with far, far, far more justification, to every non-bioconservative faction.  It was playing around with simulated (and thus enhancable) human intellects that made the Prometheans and caused the Fall.

Again, it's remarkable how the presence of the Jovians and the posthumans in conjunction with each other so cleanly make the point that there is no actual philosophical point here, just "We find X advancement neat and rad and only oppressive tyrants would keep it from the people, but obviously X+1 advancement is horrifying and dehumanizing and we should anarchistically purge any who make use of it."

Yes, firewall does horrible stuff to keep transhumanity alive. mass murder is an option. framing innocents for firewall ops and working with crimianls who commit mass slavery and torture are things that happen.

Jovians are generally not a positive faction but their fear of super tech and trtanshumanity is rooted in the fall, which killed 95% of transhumanity. it's far more justifiable than murcas reaction to 911.

Hypercorps and hypercapitalists are generally portrayed as pure evil, and this is fine with me, they're just like modern corporations that charge so much for medicine thousands of americans suffer and die every year, and every year people find out that the tiny pensions they worked for most of their lives have been looted and dissapeared. I think portraying the corporations as more or less pure raw naked greed and evil is fair and balanced. See below.







Christ that nestle guy looks like you can see where satan sucked his soul out thru one of his eyes when he sold it to him...
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BoxCrayonTales

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Re: Does anyone here actually PLAY eclipse phase?
« Reply #254 on: May 04, 2021, 03:25:50 PM »
I'm kind of tickled as to how the creators of Eclipse Phase managed to recreate the fundamental tension of Warhammer 40K, while decrying it as a concept.  When your choices are to stand with the Nazi Ultimates and fascist Jovian junta, or to fall alone as humanity is swallowed by Exsurgent, or just Mr. Forkswarm deciding that the universe had Fucked Around enough and was now going to Find Out, what is your ideological purity worth to you?

It is, I find, a good little insight into how (or, sadly, if) people think about what they hate. The designers of Eclipse Phase believe that some ideas are so evil and repugnant that giving them a fair consideration, that doing anything but treating them like corruptive little mini-Exsurgents which can rip out people's ability to think and reason and ride them like a cordyceps polyp, presents actual, literal danger to life and limb.  In-universe, the same justification applies, in far more detail and with far, far, far more justification, to every non-bioconservative faction.  It was playing around with simulated (and thus enhancable) human intellects that made the Prometheans and caused the Fall.

Again, it's remarkable how the presence of the Jovians and the posthumans in conjunction with each other so cleanly make the point that there is no actual philosophical point here, just "We find X advancement neat and rad and only oppressive tyrants would keep it from the people, but obviously X+1 advancement is horrifying and dehumanizing and we should anarchistically purge any who make use of it."

Ironic that scifi written decades ago tackles similar themes much better than this.