Quote from: Mishihari on May 19, 2021, 01:07:30 PM

When I took my first quantum mechanics course I really liked the idea that if you bounced a macroscopic ball against a wall there was an infinitesimal but non-zero probablity that that the ball would go right through the wall by tunneling.  I took to bouncing balls off walls a lot, but sadly, I never saw it happen.

People are really terrible at assessing extremely low probabilities, aren't they?

Quote from: Pat on May 19, 2021, 06:07:40 PM

Quote from: Mishihari on May 19, 2021, 01:07:30 PM

When I took my first quantum mechanics course I really liked the idea that if you bounced a macroscopic ball against a wall there was an infinitesimal but non-zero probablity that that the ball would go right through the wall by tunneling.  I took to bouncing balls off walls a lot, but sadly, I never saw it happen.

People are really terrible at assessing extremely low probabilities, aren't they?

Oh, I didn't have any illusions.  I did some simple calculation to get an estimated expected time to see such an event, and IIRC it was much, much longer than the life of the universe.  Hope springs eternal, though,

Quote from: The Thing on May 19, 2021, 01:47:19 PM

Ok, we're having an intelligent reasonable conversation here so let me try to keep it going along that line. Is it possible that in EP's time what we now call central processors work at a quantum level? I'd imagine so. I mean the game starts like about 200 years from now, and unless we have a total societal and technological collapse that ends technological advancement it's likely that processor tech will be pretty much as advanced over what we have today as the CPU in your computer right now is advanced over one of Charles babbage's difference engines, the first mechanical computing devices built in the 1820's.

Yes, and no, maybe and maybe not. The future in 200 years will almost certainly have quantum computers of immense power. But we may (or may not) be approaching the end of Moore's Law. So the difference in processing power between them and us, compared to us and Ada's toy, may (or may not be) smaller. The problem with quantum-level manipulation is it requires a staggering increase in computational power to do it at the level of, say, a brain.

The out, of course, is the future will not be a simple extrapolation of current trends. There will be new and ground breaking technologies and fundamental theories that we can't even imagine today. And those will change the world in ways we simply can't predict. Clarke's Law is always a factor. And 200 years is an immense stretch of time.

For copying a mind, I'd say the best approach is to use the approach that Stanislaw Lem was so adept at: Don't overexplain it. Define what's possible, set up the rules, but don't try to explain too much how it works. The goal in this case is to prevent it feeling like magic, but that's why it's important to make it clearly defined and consistent, and to create a believable culture of science around it.

All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

The presentation is ass

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

I forget about Rifts!

Oh right, doesn't it have a horrible ruleset?

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Ultimates are not Nazi overlords. They are fascist elitists, but largely uninterested in ruling over those they consider lesser beings. They might try to convert you, but not by force--if you don't see the virtue in joining with them, they're not going to try to coerce you. Those lesser beings can still be useful to them though, typically as clients.

Hypercorps are (at least in 2e) not "evil corporations" like megacorporations in cyberpunk settings. They are amoral and profit-focused, but most are relatively small, focused, and have very few permanent employees. Other than the executives, almost all hypercorp talent are freelancers that might only work with a given hypercorp for a contract as short as a few hours before finishing off the day with another hypercorp (and being off-contract/unemployed during their rest period while their muse seeks out new job opportunities for them for the next day). These are not typically evil people, just cogs in the machine. Even executives will frequently enter and exit various hypercorps while hoping to come out ahead with each step. Their goal is not to keep running such hypercorps, but to earn enough to move beyond having to keep playing the game (but very few do).

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 07:11:23 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

I forget about Rifts!

Oh right, doesn't it have a horrible ruleset?

No worse than anything OSR. Ultimate Edition actually cleaned up a lot of the accumulated rules cruft (the ranged combat rules are actually useable, they fixed high end skills by allowing skills to go over 98% to counter difficulty penalties) and added more interesting options to the non-magic/non-augment classes.

I was playing an awesome campaign pre-Coof and it ran as well or better than any of the supposedly "better designed" systems.

Agree to some boundaries for PC creation so everyone's on the same page (i.e. the above campaign was mostly human/SDC D-Bees and the one robot pilot agreed to use a light Flying Titan power suit and we eventually got a dragon hatchling whose player agreed to take the minimum roll for MDC so they actually had less than the Flying Titan suit) and play it like an OSR game (rulings over rules) and it's actually a kickass system.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 20, 2021, 08:36:32 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 07:11:23 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

I forget about Rifts!

Oh right, doesn't it have a horrible ruleset?

No worse than anything OSR. Ultimate Edition actually cleaned up a lot of the accumulated rules cruft (the ranged combat rules are actually useable, they fixed high end skills by allowing skills to go over 98% to counter difficulty penalties) and added more interesting options to the non-magic/non-augment classes.

I was playing an awesome campaign pre-Coof and it ran as well or better than any of the supposedly "better designed" systems.

Agree to some boundaries for PC creation so everyone's on the same page (i.e. the above campaign was mostly human/SDC D-Bees and the one robot pilot agreed to use a light Flying Titan power suit and we eventually got a dragon hatchling whose player agreed to take the minimum roll for MDC so they actually had less than the Flying Titan suit) and play it like an OSR game (rulings over rules) and it's actually a kickass system.

   I think the Savage Worlds version of the rules is much more to my taste.  IMO a big improvement.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

Ugh. I played rifts a couple times. I'd managed to forget it. Thanks for reminding me. NOT!

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 07:11:23 PM


I forget about Rifts!

Oh right, doesn't it have a horrible ruleset?

No, it doesn't

Quote from: oggsmash on May 20, 2021, 08:56:00 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 20, 2021, 08:36:32 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 07:11:23 PM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 20, 2021, 06:57:25 PM

Quote from: The Thing on May 20, 2021, 06:36:44 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 20, 2021, 02:35:42 PM
All this philosophical navel-gazing just makes me want to play a Mutant Future game where every apocalypse is smashed together. The Rapture, nuclear war, alien invasion, zombie apocalypse, grey goo, vampire counts, pulp fantasy, etc. Take inspiration from Thundarr the Barbarian, Left Behind, Vampire Hunter D, Cleopatra 2525, Mad Max, Fallout, Wasteland, Gamma World, d20 Apocalypse, Land of the Dead, etc.

Uh, yeah, hate to tell you but EP comes as close to that as I know of any rpg setting.

post apocalypse, alien invasion, exsurgent zombies, psi powers that come close to magic, evil monsters are covered by the exhuman faction, space nazi overlords are basically ultimates in 2e, evil corporations destroying humanity for fun and profit, mutants are covered by exsurgent victims and some really weird strains of transhumanity....Yeah, Ep has a lot of what you want actually.

Rifts laughs at you.

I forget about Rifts!

Oh right, doesn't it have a horrible ruleset?

No worse than anything OSR. Ultimate Edition actually cleaned up a lot of the accumulated rules cruft (the ranged combat rules are actually useable, they fixed high end skills by allowing skills to go over 98% to counter difficulty penalties) and added more interesting options to the non-magic/non-augment classes.

I was playing an awesome campaign pre-Coof and it ran as well or better than any of the supposedly "better designed" systems.

Agree to some boundaries for PC creation so everyone's on the same page (i.e. the above campaign was mostly human/SDC D-Bees and the one robot pilot agreed to use a light Flying Titan power suit and we eventually got a dragon hatchling whose player agreed to take the minimum roll for MDC so they actually had less than the Flying Titan suit) and play it like an OSR game (rulings over rules) and it's actually a kickass system.

   I think the Savage Worlds version of the rules is much more to my taste.  IMO a big improvement.

I looked it over, but ultimately "Savage Rifts" is too restrained relative to the source material.

Even a high powered spellcaster/psychic in SR is going to be sucking fumes after half a dozen spells and their damage system doesn't capture the utter ridiculousness of MDC damage well by trying to make it something like an ordinary heavy weapon and stripping a lot of the lighter stuff of the "heavy" category.

When spellcasters can't launch energy bolts like they're in a superhero MMO, a dodged vibro-knife doesn't cut the car behind you in half and your body armor can't take a direct hit from a rocket that would bring down a building you are, at least in my opinion, doing Rifts wrong.

For me Rifts tagline should be "Embrace the Gonzo!"

My Savage Worlds Rifts combat cyborg tanked three hits from railguns without even taking wounds. It's fine as is.