Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 06:51:21 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 05:16:08 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 04:45:33 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 04:39:44 PM
Wow.

I left here in disgust but decided to see what happened to my thread a couple days later. I was amazed to see a real discussion growing out of the shitstorm some assholes here turned it into.

In true drama queen fashion, you flounce out like a little bitch, and then come back because you didn't really want to leave, you just wanted attention.

QuoteI'm glad to see a decent discussion started here after a couple days and may drop in to see if any useful things come up. The sad thing is EP would be such a great game to discuss at the site of total evil, but it's such a shit hole of what i have to call the fascist left that i just can't stand to go there anymore. Plus i'm kinda hoping something happens to it soon.

This place is frankly a right wing shithole but at least some posters here are  worth reading and you can post dissent without being banhammered 5 minutes later.

You just have to act like an adult and not come in swinging and then complain when people punch back. If you're up for a suggestion, how about trying leaving the politics out altogether. You started that crap, and then participated in the replies.

Ok, time to start blocking trolls so i'm not bothered by their shitlording.

FUCK! This board doesn't have a block function?!

It's buried in user settings.

Fuick, now i have to thank you. most sites have a link on the asshole you want to block (you, you nazi shitlord) and you click on it, this one you have to edit your own profile. Fucktarded, but i guess i should't expect intelligence from a site ran by someone dumb enough to believe in libertarianism.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 06:51:21 PM


It's buried in user settings.

Hey, thanks for this.  This was very helpful.

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 06:51:21 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 05:16:08 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 04:45:33 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 04:39:44 PM
Wow.

I left here in disgust but decided to see what happened to my thread a couple days later. I was amazed to see a real discussion growing out of the shitstorm some assholes here turned it into.

In true drama queen fashion, you flounce out like a little bitch, and then come back because you didn't really want to leave, you just wanted attention.

QuoteI'm glad to see a decent discussion started here after a couple days and may drop in to see if any useful things come up. The sad thing is EP would be such a great game to discuss at the site of total evil, but it's such a shit hole of what i have to call the fascist left that i just can't stand to go there anymore. Plus i'm kinda hoping something happens to it soon.

This place is frankly a right wing shithole but at least some posters here are  worth reading and you can post dissent without being banhammered 5 minutes later.

You just have to act like an adult and not come in swinging and then complain when people punch back. If you're up for a suggestion, how about trying leaving the politics out altogether. You started that crap, and then participated in the replies.

Ok, time to start blocking trolls so i'm not bothered by their shitlording.

FUCK! This board doesn't have a block function?!

It's buried in user settings.

Fuick, now i have to thank you. most sites have a link on the asshole you want to block (you, you nazi shitlord) and you click on it, this one you have to edit your own profile. Fucktarded, but i guess i should't expect intelligence from a site ran by someone dumb enough to believe in libertarianism.

https://i.imgur.com/2BGo9rq.gif

Quote from: robertliguori on April 28, 2021, 07:10:06 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on April 28, 2021, 06:51:21 PM


It's buried in user settings.

Hey, thanks for this.  This was very helpful.

Yeppers.

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 06:57:55 PM
Now you may not like what goering is saying there, i sure as blood don't, but can you say it's not the ghawdawful truth? Mob psychology, appealing to the lowest common denominator,  etc, it usually succeeds to manipulating a large enough chunk of the population, what the russians may have fairly called the "lumpen proletariat",  into giving power to the wrong people.

Fuck, look at how successful that ochre tumor in the white house from Fed.2017-Feb.2021 was at this old game.

You don't even have to get into mob psychology. One of the roots is nationalism. The whole idea of "America fuck yeah!" would have been completely alien to people from just a few centuries ago. People were loyal to leaders to whom they swore fealty, but that was an upper crust warrior class social convention designed to protect their privileges. People were also inspired by faith and religion. But the idea of the nation as something in itself worthy of reverence? Nationalism is a new development, a shift of personal loyalty to an abstraction, and one that is identified with an entire people not a class. For good or ill, it's a powerful tool.

Another factor comes from public choice theory. Most of what politicians do has very little effect on an individual. Sure, the latest boondoogle that rewards the politically in may be an obscene waste, but it doesn't immediately affect my taxes. Even if the average person was perspicacious enough to recognize that blown money will ultimately come due and have to be paid, whether it's by me or my children, and whether it's through the vehicle of taxes or inflation, and was able to figure out the ultimate price, then so what? Say the cost is $100, to pick a random number. If you take into account how much time I'd have to spend to familiarize myself with the issues, familiarize myself with the candidates, pick the one who's best on this issue, wait however many years until the next election cycle, I'd still have to dilute all that to almost nothing because 1 vote is almost certain to have no effect on who wins or loses. So even in the best scenario, my expected return on that investment of time and effect is effectively zero. That's why so many people tune out politics. It's not stupidity or cupidity, but rational ignorance. There's no value in educating oneself.

But if you're calling Trump a warwonger, that's just more of that insane partisan bias showing. He's the only president in recent memory who didn't start any new wars, and even worked on peace in places like North Korea and multiple Mideast nations, to the horror of the real warmongering Washington elite.

Oh, weren't you supposed to ignore me?

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 06:57:55 PM
So what you said about being able to edit an individual ego any way you want is true, but really, does it matter when just the same old techniques of propaganda that were so successful in the 1930's and that the ocher tumor and rupe murdoch's propaganda empire use today are effective enough to control enough of the masses to take and maintain a lot of power over society?

Yes. The current methods are fallible. If you can just reboot, try again, or insert absolute overrides, then the chance of resistance goes from low to zero. That matters when calculating x-risks, because given enough time a low chance of overthrowing a state that ends human potential means human potential will probably flourish again, even if it takes millennia or meganna. If the chance is zero (or effectively zero over grand periods of time), then that ending of human potential will be permanent.

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 06:57:55 PM
Another issue in EP might be that a lot of issues are complex and hard to grasp, and maybe pe0ple don't have time or effort to spare studying complex, multifaceted issues in depth in order to make a good decision.

So, in Ep you can make a fork of yourself to do that kind of deep study for you, to access databases, look up history, see what the facts are, study and weight the issues, make an informed decision then reintegrate that fork into yourself instantly know what it learned and what it thought as a copy of you., instead of letting a talking head rhat looks like a stupid, evil pillsbury doughboy tell you what to believe.

This echoes what I said about about rational ignorance, but I think you're overly optimistic. Look at how much more information we have access to, compared to any other time in history. From Googling with smartphones to Wikipedia and Project Gutenberg, to all the online courses. Has the wealth of information made people more informed, and have a more balanced view of the world? Or does it seem to be segmenting the world, where people insulate themselves in bubbles that just repeat the information they want to hear?

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 07:07:56 PMbut i guess i should't expect intelligence from a site ran by someone dumb enough to believe in libertarianism.

So are you here to fling shit or not? If you wanted no politics, you could have asked that at title outset, instead of calling people names, and then getting shocked when they react.

Im not libertarian, but I am moreso oriented that way. And you ended up being a dick to me despite respectable conversation up until then.

Quote from: Pat on April 28, 2021, 05:18:10 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 04:39:44 PM
I left here in disgust but decided to see what happened to my thread a couple days later. I was amazed to see a real discussion growing out of the shitstorm some assholes here turned it into.

You incorrectly pluralized asshole. There was only one asshole.

Notice how real discussion only happened when the person stinking up the thread left.

Exactly. I was away for a few hours, and came back only to find three extra pages of total shitfest since I last posted in this thread. All it took was the source of the shit rearing its head in here again.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 06:27:46 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 06:10:02 PMWell you would be a villain in EP.

For pointing out the innate flaws of the system? In that setting, I would be one of the evil bio-conservatives so I suppose so.

Nova Praxis is a bit more tolerant of your perspective and includes the lore bit that medical technology is advancing fast enough that bio-conservatives aren't suicidally stupid. It's also far more transhumanist Sci-fi, while eclipse phase is more post-human sci-fi.

But generally, using philosophical arguments to say a thinking feeling creature is one we have no moral obligations too is pure villainy regardless.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 07:59:52 PM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 06:27:46 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 06:10:02 PMWell you would be a villain in EP.

For pointing out the innate flaws of the system? In that setting, I would be one of the evil bio-conservatives so I suppose so.

Nova Praxis is a bit more tolerant of your perspective and includes the lore bit that medical technology is advancing fast enough that bio-conservatives aren't suicidally stupid. It's also far more transhumanist Sci-fi, while eclipse phase is more post-human sci-fi.

But generally, using philosophical arguments to say a thinking feeling creature is one we have no moral obligations too is pure villainy regardless.

On this we agree completely. Really i think adopting a "Cogito ergo sum"  standard would by a good starting place.

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 07:59:52 PMBut generally, using philosophical arguments to say a thinking feeling creature is one we have no moral obligations too is pure villainy regardless.

Im talking purely theoretically. Im incapable of taking the "bad guy" route even in videogames, because I feel bad being bad to simulated pixel people.

Im saying that human ethics in EP would be phased out almost immediately, and thise people would not be humans. I see myself having a moral obligation to wasps, but I will not morally police them.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 08:17:28 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on April 28, 2021, 07:59:52 PMBut generally, using philosophical arguments to say a thinking feeling creature is one we have no moral obligations too is pure villainy regardless.

Im talking purely theoretically. Im incapable of taking the "bad guy" route even in videogames, because I feel bad being bad to simulated pixel people.

Im saying that human ethics in EP would be phased out almost immediately, and thise people would not be humans. I see myself having a moral obligation to wasps, but I will not morally police them.

Hey, I won't kill a dog or cat in a game. Evil corporate goons, sure. Dog or cat, no.

Greetings!

Ratman is a very cool member of this board. He is certainly not a nahtzee. Ratman is knowledgable, friendly, and well-liked by many here.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 08:20:22 PM
Hey, I won't kill a dog or cat in a game. Evil corporate goons, sure. Dog or cat, no.

So will you just ignore my question about weather your here to fling shit or not? I don't want to have conversations if the person Im conversing with has no respect for me.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2021, 07:56:26 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 28, 2021, 05:18:10 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 04:39:44 PM
I left here in disgust but decided to see what happened to my thread a couple days later. I was amazed to see a real discussion growing out of the shitstorm some assholes here turned it into.

You incorrectly pluralized asshole. There was only one asshole.

Notice how real discussion only happened when the person stinking up the thread left.

Exactly. I was away for a few hours, and came back only to find three extra pages of total shitfest since I last posted in this thread. All it took was the source of the shit rearing its head in here again.

Greetings!

*Laughing* So true, my friend!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on April 28, 2021, 07:42:14 PM

Quote from: matt swain on April 28, 2021, 07:07:56 PMbut i guess i should't expect intelligence from a site ran by someone dumb enough to believe in libertarianism.

So are you here to fling shit or not? If you wanted no politics, you could have asked that at title outset, instead of calling people names, and then getting shocked when they react.

Im not libertarian, but I am moreso oriented that way. And you ended up being a dick to me despite respectable conversation up until then.

Libertarianism will not work until there are some real paradigm shifts in human nature or culture. The game "bioshock' was an example of how a libertarian system would collapse in short order. Even with plasmids the libertarian paradise of rapture was doomed.

Ironically one classic sf movie, 'the day the earth stood still', was a libertarian movie and klaatu clearly came froma  libertarian culture. Their culture worked because they had things like gort to enforce it in an irresistible, impartial, corruptible fashion. Until we have something like that libertarianism is  an express way to feudalistic society.