Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023850I can say the same thing with one guy and polearm in a dungeon crawl.  About as effective, and yet, most historical war gamers praise the polearm as the ultimate weapon.

That is also because wargamers look at it through the lens of historic mass warfare, whereas armchair gamers look at it as some fucked-up pseudoscience at the table.

Quote from: Opaopajr;1023735I get it, well 'got it' technically. It's like how I learned metal armor was not the norm for everyday wear. Basically taking that type of gear out is like a signal how serious something became. Most of the time people didn't walk around as if they were readied-for-war. (It interferes with getting the groceries or chillaxing with your homies. )

Not to mention that it was typically illegal to do so, particularly in cities.

So yes, upon investigation it is possible that you could make a good argument that on the battlefield, spears were more useful, particularly for the rank & file.

But that doesn't extend to "swords were useless". In the hands of trained fighter, they were extremely useful. And outside of the battlefield, a sword was supreme. There's good reason why it was the weapon of the nobility and the symbol of a knight.

Quote from: RunningLaser;1023747I was thinking more in line where players wanted to raid dungeons with Browning Hi Powers (take that Gronan!  Your 1911a1.....   ) and what not.

Yeah, you go right ahead and run into a place where there is rock above your head at any given time with firearms. Go right ahead.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1024292So yes, upon investigation it is possible that you could make a good argument that on the battlefield, spears were more useful, particularly for the rank & file.

But that doesn't extend to "swords were useless". In the hands of trained fighter, they were extremely useful. And outside of the battlefield, a sword was supreme. There's good reason why it was the weapon of the nobility and the symbol of a knight.

Or long polearms in formation behind a wall of tower shields. Spears are always handy though because they can be thrown. Even if you have that big tower shield, just hand your spear to the guy using you for cover and let him throw it.

I really can't imagine swords being useless unless your opponent has a ranged weapon which is cocked and ready. Mind you there is also a reason why knives have never gone out of style. They are better in close quarters and tight places, and easier to conceal. I love my camping machete, and would trust that over a sword any day with the added bonus of being able to chop firewood with it. Fun fact, a sword smith gifted Michael Moorcock with a replica of Stormbringer some years back, and The Man did in fact use it to chop firewood.

The thing about swords outside the battlefield is true, unless your angry farmer happens to have a pitch fork in hand. Still, a long blade will always be useful and armor was expensive. I honestly couldn't see someone carrying something that wasn't useful. Sure some nobles would do it, because idiots exist, but people generally don't carry around tools they don't know how to use.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023837Also, can you imagine a hand gonne down in a dungeon crawl?  Between keeping the powder dry and trying to keep the touch wire hot... whee!

Not to mention what happens to your hearing firing a gun in a 10' corridor.

Quote from: Sailing Scavenger;1024301Not to mention what happens to your hearing firing a gun in a 10' corridor.

I'm starting to think I like you.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1022858My personal contention has always been that if there was "one perfect weapon," everybody would be using it.  Since a wide variety of weapons remained in use, we can assume that they were all useful in some way.

Experimentation. Look at all the pole arms. People were experimenting like crazy to come up with a batter way to wack knights or pull them off those darn horses. Or the wide range of sword lengths and styles. Or the degree and placement of curvature, if any. Thrusting? Chopping? Both?
Also probably some artistry. Add a few sticky-out-bits to make it look more menacing. China showed just how far people can go with merging art and function.

And of course access or personal preference. Government issue? Custom? etc.

Quote from: Omega;1024309Experimentation. Look at all the pole arms. People were experimenting like crazy to come up with a batter way to wack knights or pull them off those darn horses. Or the wide range of sword lengths and styles. Or the degree and placement of curvature, if any. Thrusting? Chopping? Both?
Also probably some artistry. Add a few sticky-out-bits to make it look more menacing. China showed just how far people can go with merging art and function.

And of course access or personal preference. Government issue? Custom? etc.

St. Gary introduced many of us young'uns Backinnaday to this in the original Players Handbook. Bill Hooks? Partisans? Ranseur? WTF are these? I remember my first library trips and getting a stack of books on medieval weaponry and armor (and just period history books in general) - because of that weapon's list.

Not to mention my personal favorite polearm, the "Bohemian Ear Spoon."

TBH, 'guisarme-voulge' always sounded like an ABBA song to me.

Muskets  and flintlocks could be statted out with damage comprable to a crossbow and sling bullet. Adjust range and fire rate accordingly. Maybee add in a chance for a fizzle or jam.

Or just port over the Gamma World musket, 1d6 damage 60 meter range. A GW crossbow is 1d6/1d3 and 120m while a sling is 1d4/2d4 with a 90m range.(you can fire out to twice that for 1/2 damage.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;1023724Well, early firearms actually had worse range than longbows, so I'm not sure that "range" was the real factor.

Didn't the Prussians actually keep a unit of longbows around until the late 18th / early 19th century for just that reason?  Longbows had better range & faster fire until somewhere in The Napoleonic Wars.  (Not that muskets didn't have many other advantages.)

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023837Also, can you imagine a hand gonne down in a dungeon crawl?  Between keeping the powder dry and trying to keep the touch wire hot... whee!

Just imagine the effect of a Fireball on the gunpowder barrels

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1023850I can say the same thing with one guy and polearm in a dungeon crawl.  About as effective,

That brings up the very good point that most TTRPGs aren't modeling the same situation for which most medieval weapons and armors were developed. Pikes (or guns or slings or longbows) not the best items for use in dungeons? Of course not, how many of those exist in the real world?

In my games, I tend to think of guns of that era just like that--things that undoubtedly would work on massed troops, but ones not made for 1-on-1 or dungeon-style combat.

Quoteand yet, most historical war gamers praise the polearm as the ultimate weapon.

I don't know that I know what most historical war gamers think (never got into them, personally), but the trend I've noticed seems to be that there is a consensus that there is an elaborate 4+-way rock-paper-scissors like thing going on between archery/artillery, cavalry, polearms, and infantry, where the worst position to be in is to have the wrong troops going up against the wrong troops in the wrong situation (so don't send cavalry against pikes, but do send them against infantry).

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1023837Also, can you imagine a hand gonne down in a dungeon crawl?  Between keeping the powder dry and trying to keep the touch wire hot... whee!

Every once in a while we (my groups) spend a diversive 10 minutes and think about just how hard every part of adventuring would really would be/have been at that technology base. How hard travelling without a wagon train/supply lines would be. How hard fording a river would be when next to nothing was waterproof (and you would probably be wet in who-knows-what-weather for the rest of the day until you might get to sit in front of a fire the coming evening). How easily rations would be spoiled.

Compared to the nearly sight-seeing-like travel of Peter Jackson LotR, where peoples' packs magically disappear for important scenes, etc.--if adventuring in that era were really a thing, it'd be so unbearable that it would again barely be a thing very quickly. (OTOH, 100s of people really did get on 80-90' boats and sail for months, so I guess the risk/rewards of the era were heavily skewed towards the 'put up with hell' model).