This practise is really bad game design and a total red flag for me. It broke my interest in Numenera which, ymmv, was otherwise quite decent.

What's to stop one player saying 'ranged weapons' instead of 'bow' or 'pistol' and being able to fire every type of ranged weapon with one skill? Maybe that's an issue for some, not for others, but that's the ambiguity that's the problem.

How difficult is it to craft a simple skill list?

Quote from: Biscuitician;991735
How difficult is it to craft a simple skill list?

Depending on what you want out of it, very difficult. If you are creating a comprehensive skill list, you have to balance too much against not enough, and try to avoid accidentally creating "meta-skills". Read some of the other responses in this thread and one of the threads about building optimal characters.

Skip to last paragraph to bypass me talking about my RPG.

   For my game, I use nothing but "meta-skills" and careers. My game's equivalent of skill categories are: Offense, Defense, Magic, Non-Career Skills, and Career Skills. Pick two careers. (Non-career skills are permanently at the lowest level.)

If you want to be bad at something, there is a mechanic to add that in. (I have one player whose character thinks she is good at stealth stuff, but isn't.)

If you want to be extra good at something, there is a mechanic for that. (The same character is incredibly good at climbing.)

Even those meta-skills can be abusive--like your example of creating a meta-category that applies more often. Rather than rules-lawyer that, I just said to make sure everyone is happy with how things are. I have a player with a character who has a penalty to everything underground--the player is very happy running that character. I have characters whose penalties are more specific, like the stealth stuff, and everyone is happy with that too.

Sometimes, it is how a player looks at a skill. One player took "fetch" as their really-good skill for their werewolf character. She got to use it once or twice when they needed lizards to make chicken vindaloo, but was sad she didn't get to use it more. I told her she could try using it whenever she wanted--try swiping weapons from opponents or use it to successfully serve the vindaloo. She's a lot more happy now.

But, I also offer to let people choose differently if things don't quite work how they expected. But I don't think anyone has ever done that.

But, that isn't to everyone's taste. Some GMs and Players get into arguments about if a career matches a particular skill. So Players that do that, or are often playing in "pick up" groups want a system with more rigorously defined skill areas, so they know what their character can do starting out, rather than having to guess about what the GM thinks is "allowed".

Quote from: Tod13;991777Pick two careers.

You lost me right there. Two careers? I know a few people that moonlight, or have a side job. Those people wind up doing neither job very well in my experience. I don't know anyone who has two careers, and somehow I suspect that such a person would be even rarer in a medieval economy. Unless you don't need sleep for some strange reason and have separate lives night and day, I just can't even begin to wrap my head around having more than one career.

A quick google brings this up for "career":

Quote from: Googlean occupation undertaken for a significant period of a person's life and with opportunities for progress.

How may significant portions of a life does one have at one time? In my 50+ years on this planet, my experience has been that the answer is invariably one.

Quote from: Zalman;991780You lost me right there. Two careers? I know a few people that moonlight, or have a side job. Those people wind up doing neither job very well in my experience. I don't know anyone who has two careers, and somehow I suspect that such a person would be even rarer in a medieval economy. Unless you don't need sleep for some strange reason and have separate lives night and day, I just can't even begin to wrap my head around having more than one career.

Actually, in medieval times, I think there was less specialization to a narrow career. In a big modern city, someone can make their money as a specialist in a narrow field (neurosurgeon,  interior decorator, etc.), and use their money to buy everything else. In history, there were often less specialists, and people had several different part-time jobs that changed with the time of year and/or demand.

For example, in medieval times, someone might tend a farm in the summer, and in the winter fish and make their own candles and beer. If they weren't good at home-building, they traded beer with a neighbor to fix their house. Another person might be a good blacksmith, and have their own forge, but they also maintain their cow herd and stables for a living. In particular, professional soldiers were a rarity. Most often, someone would be called on to fight in times of conflict - but most of the time tended their lands or had some other living.

Quote from: Zalman;991780You lost me right there. Two careers? I know a few people that moonlight, or have a side job. Those people wind up doing neither job very well in my experience. I don't know anyone who has two careers, and somehow I suspect that such a person would be even rarer in a medieval economy. Unless you don't need sleep for some strange reason and have separate lives night and day, I just can't even begin to wrap my head around having more than one career.

A quick google brings this up for "career":

How may significant portions of a life does one have at one time? In my 50+ years on this planet, my experience has been that the answer is invariably one.

I tend to somewhat agree with this assessment, though I think you can approximate life experience via certain paths, especially if the career progression is wedded to character backstory. From a game perspective, though, Barbarians of Lemuria has an interesting way of doing this, with careers forming said backbone. I should note here, though, that some of those careers might also be, for lack of a batter word, :statuses" (i.e., being a "Slave," or a "Wanderer," etc.--not so much careers as experiences). In any case, in that system, since you rated the careers from 0 to +3 (if I remember right), you could then delineate where a person's time was spent.

For example, for myself, having spent the same 50+ years hangin' around this little blue ball, I can say I have significant experience in the following areas:

Journalist
Military Linguist/cryptanalyst
Teacher
Actor

There's a lot of other little stuff in there (thanks to my redneck, Texas family, I learned to hunt and fish, basic carpentry, and, thanks to summer jobs, something of service station pump piping and installation [though I don't think I can list "Redneck Texan" as a "career," per se).:-)  Those are basically the main "careers" I've had, with two of them being my primary occupation, for most of my life.  If I had to put +'s to reflect this, it'd be something like this, on the BoL scale:

Journalist +1
Military Linguist/cryptanalyst +2
Teacher +4
Actor +2

This based on time spent actually doing those things. I spend, and have spent, a shit ton of time writing and publishing various things (mostly plays), but I can't put "Writer" on the list, I guess, because my livelihood does not depend on it.

Anyhoo, I think a career system that reflects what you've already done via scaling bonuses isn't so far fetched when it comes to approximating life experiences. But all careers are not equal, in game terms, which can lead to yet another widget to min-max. I therefore like the idea of random backgrounds, just to avoid power gaming in this area.

Quote from: jhkim;991821Actually, in medieval times, I think there was less specialization to a narrow career. In a big modern city, someone can make their money as a specialist in a narrow field (neurosurgeon,  interior decorator, etc.), and use their money to buy everything else. In history, there were often less specialists, and people had several different part-time jobs that changed with the time of year and/or demand.

For example, in medieval times, someone might tend a farm in the summer, and in the winter fish and make their own candles and beer. If they weren't good at home-building, they traded beer with a neighbor to fix their house. Another person might be a good blacksmith, and have their own forge, but they also maintain their cow herd and stables for a living. In particular, professional soldiers were a rarity. Most often, someone would be called on to fight in times of conflict - but most of the time tended their lands or had some other living.

+1. The campaign tech level is an important consideration.

Quote from: jhkim;991821In history, there were often less specialists, and people had several different part-time jobs that changed with the time of year and/or demand.

Quote from: cranebump;991824I tend to somewhat agree with this assessment, though I think you can approximate life experience via certain paths, especially if the career progression is wedded to character backstory.

Both of these examples describe different careers pursued at different times, rather than two at the same time. Scaling bonuses based on time spent previously makes sense to me, so long as those bonuses are static. Any bonus that improves over time I feel should reflect time spent currently, not just in the past. I was mean treeplanter in my day, and could surely still a swing hoedad with aplomb, but I'm not getting any better at it lately.

Couple that with the fact that most characters I've seen start pretty darn young (at least in human development scale), and not a merry-old 50+ years. I'd have a lot harder time swallowing that career list if you told me you were 17 years old.

Even the guy who works one job in the summer and one in the winter will only get better at the one they are currently doing, just in shorter intervals.

Quote from: Zalman;991780You lost me right there. Two careers? I know a few people that moonlight, or have a side job. Those people wind up doing neither job very well in my experience. I don't know anyone who has two careers, and somehow I suspect that such a person would be even rarer in a medieval economy. Unless you don't need sleep for some strange reason and have separate lives night and day, I just can't even begin to wrap my head around having more than one career.

It is to reflect that a single career doesn't quite cover everything. If you don't want two, don't pick two.

For myself, I'm a hunter, handgunner, sporting clay shooter, swordsman, Aikido practitioner, bioinformatician, software developer, Eagle Scout, with some statistical and molecular biology training. I've worked in financial, aerospace, medical, research, information, logistics, and insurance fields. I can pilot the space shuttle in on orbit rendezvous and docking maneuvers. I can sail a sailboat and replace the shear pin on an outboard. I ride motorcycles and know the basics of dog mushing. I can (slowly) butcher and then cook an animal. I can build a 1911 from parts, including fitting the important stuff.

So you can see, "software developer" or even "bioinformatician" might not be enough.

Quote from: cranebump;991824I tend to somewhat agree with this assessment, though I think you can approximate life experience via certain paths, especially if the career progression is wedded to character backstory. From a game perspective, though, Barbarians of Lemuria has an interesting way of doing this, with careers forming said backbone. I should note here, though, that some of those careers might also be, for lack of a batter word, :statuses" (i.e., being a "Slave," or a "Wanderer," etc.--not so much careers as experiences). In any case, in that system, since you rated the careers from 0 to +3 (if I remember right), you could then delineate where a person's time was spent.

That's where I got the idea--I just simplified it. Maybe a lot. It works for us and is fun.

Quote from: BiscuiticianWhat's to stop one player saying 'ranged weapons' instead of 'bow' or 'pistol' and being able to fire every type of ranged weapon with one skill?

A referee with two warm neurons to rub together.

It's pretty customary in the BoL community to list a character's Careers in biographical and not alphabetical or numeric sequence. At the start of his career (i.e., "Tower of the Elephant"), Conan of Cimmeria thus has Barbarian 3, Blacksmith 0, Mercenary 1, and Thief 0. Aragorn goes from Noble 1 and Physician 1 (the Careers he learned under Elrond's tutelage in Rivendell) to Hunter 1 (when he comes of age among the Dunedain of the North) and Soldier 1 (when he goes south to serve in the armies of Rohan and Gondor). The Mouser's apprenticeship to a wizard starts him off with Magician 0 and Scholar 0 and then moves him to Thief 3 and Tumbler 1 when he gets to Lankhmar.

Quote from: RPGPundit;991723In Lion & Dragon you get skills from your background, or from your class. So you could have something like "Carpentry +1" or "Hide in Shadows +1" or "Occult Lore +2". There are a few classes that can choose some kind of skill aside from those explicitly listed (like a "lore", though ample examples of what makes up a 'lore' are provided).

There's just no place in the book where I bothered to list all the skills there are in one single place.

Works for me.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]1574[/ATTACH]

Quote from: Vargold;991895It's pretty customary in the BoL community to list a character's Careers in biographical and not alphabetical or numeric sequence. At the start of his career (i.e., "Tower of the Elephant"), Conan of Cimmeria thus has Barbarian 3, Blacksmith 0, Mercenary 1, and Thief 0. Aragorn goes from Noble 1 and Physician 1 (the Careers he learned under Elrond's tutelage in Rivendell) to Hunter 1 (when he comes of age among the Dunedain of the North) and Soldier 1 (when he goes south to serve in the armies of Rohan and Gondor). The Mouser's apprenticeship to a wizard starts him off with Magician 0 and Scholar 0 and then moves him to Thief 3 and Tumbler 1 when he gets to Lankhmar.

Quite right. It's a really nice system for the setting, and does adapt well to others, as evidence by BotA, BotV, Dicey Tales, and so on.

Quote from: Zalman;991780You lost me right there. Two careers? I know a few people that moonlight, or have a side job. Those people wind up doing neither job very well in my experience. I don't know anyone who has two careers, and somehow I suspect that such a person would be even rarer in a medieval economy. Unless you don't need sleep for some strange reason and have separate lives night and day, I just can't even begin to wrap my head around having more than one career.

A quick google brings this up for "career":

How may significant portions of a life does one have at one time? In my 50+ years on this planet, my experience has been that the answer is invariably one.

You'd be right if it was back in the 80's, but now it's been stated that they average person will have two or three, spending 10 or so years doing something as intensely as career.  Note the definition says 'significant PORTIONS', plural.  I believe it's also been stated that it would a good thing to switch careers to avoid burnout.

Quote from: RPGPundit;989438In Appendix P and my upcoming Lion & Dragon

Can you tell us a bit more about this project and when it will be released?