I recall that weapon distinctions mattered in Exalted (with modifiers to things like speed, accuracy, defense/parry, and attack rate in addition to damage). Beyond that, BattleTech was where I really learned to appreciate weapon distinctions. There was a world of difference between playing a missleboat and a beamslinger in that game.

Quote from: SHARK on December 28, 2020, 01:30:20 AM
That sounds awesome, Chris! I like little details like that which go along with different types of weapons--and as you mention also, such details can impact whole fighting styles for warriors.

Well, here's a little example by way of two of the weapon groups; balanced blades and cleaving blades.

Some notes for reading the entries;

- RS is "Required Skill" and is broken down into Basic (B), Expert (E) and Master (M). Non-warriors typically are skilled only with some basic weapons and occasionally one expert weapon. Warriors have skill in all basic weapons and expert skill in two to four groups (ex. balanced blades are a group, cleaving blades are another, as are bows and spears).

- Qualities in parenthesis are useable only if you have skill with the weapon greater than the base level. Ex 1. with basic skill in a dagger you can use its accurate and offhand properties, but you'd need expert skill with a dagger to use its thrown property. Ex 2. you need expert skill to use the accurate and versatile properties of a longsword, but must have master skill to use its lethal property.

- Unless otherwise noted, weapons require one-hand to use, offhand means it can be used in your offhand. Versatile means it can be used either one-handed or in two-hands with a damage bonus, 2H means you must use two hands to wield it, double means it can be used as two offhand weapons.

- Accurate grants a +1 bonus to attack rolls with it; lethal increases the damage die by one type (ex. d8 to d10), improved crit triggers crits on a natural 18-20, melee 2 means you can attack targets 2 paces away (the system uses the Roman paces which is actually two steps), polearm interacts with certain talents, shield 1 means its grants a +1 shield bonus to your armor (shield bonuses stack to a maximum of +2 and superior armors also grant shield bonuses such that superior heavy armor like full plate is so good that using a shield is redundant).

- Weapons with a * after their damage already have the lethal quality applied to it (meaning you can't have it added again on a higher quality weapon).

- Costs are in silver cents (1/100th of a pound of silver) and weights include scabbards and the minor tools needed for routine maintenance.

Balanced Blades	RS	Dmg.	Qualities	Cost	Wt.
Dagger	B	1d4	Accurate, Offhand, (Thrown 5)	10¢	1 lb.
Throwing Blade	E	1d4	Accurate, Offhand, Thrown 10	15¢	½ lb.
Short Sword	E	1d6	Accurate, Offhand	30¢	2 lb.
Side Sword	E	1d8	Accurate, (Improved Crit)	30¢	3 lb.
Longsword	E	1d8	Accurate, Versatile, (Lethal)	40¢	4 lb.
Great Sword	E	1d10	2H, Accurate, (Lethal)	50¢	5 lb.
Pole Sword	E	1d8	2H, Accurate, Melee 2, Polearm	40¢	8 lb.
Parrying Dagger	M	1d6	Accurate, Offhand, Shield 1	30¢	2 lb.
Double Sword	M	1d8	Accurate, Double	60¢	4 lb.
Cleaving Blades	RS	Dmg.	Qualities	Cost	Wt.
Sickle/Kama	B	1d6	Offhand, (Thrown 5)	15¢	2 lb.
Long Knife/Cutlass	B	1d8*	(Offhand)	15¢	2 lb.
Hog Splitter/Scythe	B	1d10	2H, (Improved Crit)	20¢	5 lb.
Falchion/Saber	E	1d10*	Versatile, (Improved Crit)	30¢	3 lb.
War Falchion	E	1d12*	2H, (Improved Crit)	50¢	6 lb.
Pole Falchion/Scythe	E	1d10*	2H, Melee 2, Polearm	40¢	10 lb.
Double Falchion	M	1d8*	Double, High Crit	50¢	5 lb.

Other weapon groups include Axes/Picks, Bludgeons, Bows, Flails, Slings, and Spears.

Here are some of the talents which can interact with balanced and cleaving blades specifically and a couple of their properties like thrown and polearm. Note that Focus is a level based bonus that is determined differently depending on your class;

Battering Blows: Your weapon attacks with axes, bludgeons, cleaving blades or flails can target Fortitude instead of Armor. Also, when you hit a prone target using one of those weapons they take Focus extra damage.

Bladed Defense: Balanced and cleaving blades you wield gain the shield 1 quality and you can shift 1 pace as a reaction when missed by an attack.

Knock Them Around: When you hit with a bludgeon, flail or polearm you can also shift the target 1 pace or knock it prone.

Lunging Attack: When you make a weapon attack with a balanced blade, bow or spear you can shift 1 pace before you attack as a free action.

Polearm Fighting: Polearms you wield gain the shield 1 quality and enemies who move into an adjacent square trigger a Free Strike from you.

Precision Strikes: Your attacks with balanced and cleaving blades, bows and spears can target Dodge. Also, when you hit a flat-footed target with an attack using those weapons, you can deal ½ Focus extra damage to it.

Throwing Expert: When you use a weapon with the thrown quality, its damage die increases by one type and its range increment by 5 paces.

Two-Weapon Fighting: When wielding a weapon in your offhand it gains the shield 1 quality. When you wield an offhand weapon in both hands, you deal 1/2/3 (by tier) extra damage with weapon attacks that hit (this damage is added after Quick Strike halves the damage of its attacks).

* * * *

Hopefully this helps outline how these parts can fit together into a fighting style.

I just watched a fascinating doc about the Ulfberht swords. These were distinguished by being extremely valuable, limited in supply, and way ahead in terms of their materials technology. This meant they could be longer for the same weight, hold their edge better, cut better, be less likely to bend or shatter, and so on. These properties would seem magical to the people of the time. To get these properties required a very precise mixture of components and literal alchemy to get right. And it is an interesting real world example of a clear advantage in combat.

For extra flavour, there was speculation that the original mix may have included human bone (possibly of their ancestors) to imbue the metal with these powers. Also, due to their value and distinctive branding, there were a lot of fakes that looked similar but didn't have the superior metallic properties.

There was also the tradition that when you defeated someone in combat, you would bend their sword and bury it with them to prevent their spirits from being able to attack you from the after life. Which is also a good way to prevent the second hand market from deflating their value.

Note that their main advantage (being more durable in combat) only really makes a difference if weapons can break which is not something D&D traditionally covers.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on December 28, 2020, 02:03:54 AM
The real challenge when making all these specific weapons is still making them all roughly equal to each other -- that there isn't just one obvious choice -- and that is what makes it be such a bother when designing it. Plus there's only so many ways you can distinguish 5 different types of axes before they start becoming duplicates of each other, mechanically.

For instance, take the handaxe and the bearded axe given as an example in the OP. Or the Dacian and the Falcata.

My favorite model for doing this isn't an RPG at all - it's the first Halo game.  They did an amazing job with the weapons.  Each one is is strong and needed in particular situations, even the lowly pistol you start off with,all the way to the end of the game.  If I can do this in an RPG, I feel I've succeeded.

Quote from: mightybrain on December 28, 2020, 03:22:17 PM
Note that their main advantage (being more durable in combat) only really makes a difference if weapons can break which is not something D&D traditionally covers.

Slight derail, but I've started to houserule more powerful crits in D&D 5e (usually by making the first set of crit dice max rolls, then roll the second set), but allowing players to sacrifice a shield or weapon in their hand to avoid the crit.  Gives some potential for breakage, and makes back-up weapons important.  We'll see how it works...

I wrote an extensive analysis (and "fix") of 5e weapons.

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/05/5e-d-melee-weapons-one-by-one-analysis.html

The TL;DR is that is works reasonably well with few outliers (quarterstaff is OP, mace/morningstar is UP, polearms are redundant, pikes are too heavy for their reach) and gaps (bludgeoning polearm, knives, more spears, falchions, sabers, bucklers, and high-quality weapons if you like those).

I published a small PDF trying to fix these outliers and gaps, plus giving some additional ideas:

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/291160/5e-Manual-of-Arms-Weapons

I do agree different crits would make things more interesting.

A couple of extra pages on 5e about weapons would make the level of detail about right for me. Instead, they chose weapon distinction be defined by magic weapons, which is fine, I guess.

I did a streamlined AC modifier table when I made this: https://uncivilwar2020.blogspot.com/2020/06/a-change-of-pace-osr-project.html . Instead of having to figure out your just the armour AC you only need to know the type and if you are using a shield. With this retrofit a whip weilding Dark Elf Thot cannot hurt a paladin in full plate. It also buffs up fighter types as they can weild weapons like Picks and Polearms which make it easier to penetrate tough skin on large creatures.

In my OD&D, I use base D6 for all weapons with -1 for dagger/staff and +1 for 2H weapons. As I used D6 for HD, those numbers work. Then, I put the weapon distinctions on top. A mace is good for smashing vs. a sword is easier to conceal vs. a spear that attacks from the 2nd rank vs. a flail gains +1 vs. shields, etc.

Once I initiated this, players then chose weapons based on something other than largest die and they were excited to play a fighter with a spear or a hammer & shield.

1st edition AD&D had length, space, speed, armour class, and opponent size damage adjustments as well as weight and cost.

Some of the stuff in 1e wasn't completely explained in the rules.  I don't know if the omission was accidental, or if at some point they decided to drop parts and did not want to redo the tables (which would have been a lot more work in the 1970's).

I'm thinking of Weapon Speed in particular.  The PHB had one version that did not quite match the DMG, and nowhere did 1st ever address how to treat Natural Attacks (that showed up in 2e and was an Initiative modifier tied to Size), by which time Weapon Speeds were gone.  The system as printed is not compatible with either the Initiative system, nor the Attacks per Turn tables.

I was in a thread over on RPGG talking about this ~5 years ago, and we eventually found comments from Gygax that the Speed stuff never worked out the way he wanted.  Plus, it did not give proper advantage (such as Pike vs. Dagger, which should completely reverse after the 1st round).

They did give it a try, though.  I think the intent was supposed to be for some kind of duel system, because similar problems happened with Armor Type as soon as monsters entered the picture.

In a system like D&D hitting first is usually only significant for 1 hit die creatures like normal men. Weapon speed and first attack is more important in systems like Runequest, BRP, and GURPS where hit points are fixed and the first good strike can end a combat.

I've got Arms Law and the Armory and Martial Arts Companion.   I do wish they'd done the Armory in the RMSS Arms Law format.  I love that the first critical against armor is an A Krush.

I used to read the Arms Law crit tables for fun.  Just a few entries at a time ... I didn't want to run out of new stuff to see, lol.

That was the only game I've personally seen that tracked damage to your weapons and armor in that level of detail.  I don't remember how it worked at all.