Quote from: CavScout;272346Is that just a long way of saying, "system/mechanics influence play unless the group ignores the system/mechanics"?

Yes, but that's an important "unless" there. The group ALWAYS trumps the designer, in every respect. If the group wants to change the mechanics, or ignore them, then the group can and should do so. Every time. That isn't what was asked, though it seems to be what Dave was looking for.

What was asked in this thread was "Do mechanics influence play?" The answer to that question is "Yes, they do." Even if the group changes the mechanics, the original mechanics did influence play to the extent that they were changed to better accommodate the play style desired.

When Dave asked tBP, the question was "How much do mechanics influence play?" which is a different question. The answer to that is "Only as much as the group allows it to influence play." Different questions, different answers. Bill was actually answering this question, and answering correctly.

-clash

Quote from: dindenver;272323Bill,
  I did post this question on other boards. And your view is actually quite predominant across all the threads I started.
  By and large, people seem to think some combination of these three things:
1) Mechanics don't change your preferred course of action, just how you feel about it afterward
2) Whenever possible, players will avoid games that do not promot their playstyle.
3) If Mechanics and playstyle do not mesh, players will house rule the system to match their playstyle

  Now, it depends on how self-aware these people are, but the prevailing belief across different forums and different splay styles tells me there is at leastr a kernel of truth in there somewhere, what do you think?

I agree. To point 2, the biggest problem is being aware. Unfortunately, advance knowledge is rare. You often end up with having to play a game to realize it is not your style. Then, IME, you see people have a threshold, a point where they will house rule the rest or abandon the system. This is usually expressed by the amount they need to actively rewrite as opposed to drop. For instance, I purposely design my games so that players can drop elements rather than with a need to rewrite. I have run stripped down version of Iridium that look a lot like Basic DND. To me, this is often more pertinent and a function of people not being aware of their preferences. They just know that they do not want to play with weapon speeds because they "suck". I believe the self aware designer/GM carefully recrafting a system to meet the clearly expressed play preferences of his group are rare to the point of being myth.

Quote from: CavScout;272346Is that just a long way of saying, "system/mechanics influence play unless the group ignores the system/mechanics"?

As said below, it is an important "unless" that makes all the difference.

Quote from: flyingmice;272354Yes, but that's an important "unless" there. The group ALWAYS trumps the designer, in every respect. If the group wants to change the mechanics, or ignore them, then the group can and should do so. Every time. That isn't what was asked, though it seems to be what Dave was looking for.

What was asked in this thread was "Do mechanics influence play?" The answer to that question is "Yes, they do." Even if the group changes the mechanics, the original mechanics did influence play to the extent that they were changed to better accommodate the play style desired.

When Dave asked tBP, the question was "How much do mechanics influence play?" which is a different question. The answer to that is "Only as much as the group allows it to influence play." Different questions, different answers. Bill was actually answering this question, and answering correctly.

-clash

Thanks!

And I did answer the first. They do influence play but as you noted, the group trump the mechanics and any "designer" influence. I would argue that any system, played enough, will eventually come to reflect the play style of the group. Those mechanics are not set, so to say they "influence" play is a bit misleading. I would prefer to say that they reflect play of the group. A minor point but an important one to me (and I think to you Clash) in that it then falls on the designer to do his best to provide a system that can be easily extended, manipulated and substituted.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWelt;272359And I did answer the first. They do influence play but as you noted, the group trump the mechanics and any "designer" influence. I would argue that any system, played enough, will eventually come to reflect the play style of the group. Those mechanics are not set, so to say they "influence" play is a bit misleading. I would prefer to say that they reflect play of the group. A minor point but an important one to me (and I think to you Clash) in that it then falls on the designer to do his best to provide a system that can be easily extended, manipulated and substituted.

Bill

We are singing the same tune, Bill. And, of course, my goal in life is to provide a system that is easily and completely customizable to fit a group's needs, perfectly strong and perfectly flexible. Since that is an unreachable goal, it's perfect, as I can keep getting closer without achieving it for the rest of my life. Bill and Brett have both made serious pushes in the same direction, and continue to refine their approaches. Modularity, flexibility, ease of replacement, ease of customization, a strong and simple core which can stand on its own, yet capable of bearing the weight of a full suite of modular bits without complaining.

-clash

Quote from: dindenver;272327Thanks for the thoughtful answer.

No worries.

QuoteI think you are in the majority. But I wonder why?

I don't know, and I'm not sure I could say this is true or not. I figure I've gamed with about 2 maybe 3 hundred people, ranging from high school kids, to Marines I served with, to people I hooked up with online because we liked the same games.

But I have no idea how we really compare to what's out there, or hell even really what's out there.

QuoteAnd I wonder what it says about all those designers that make a game more lethal in order to discourage combat?

I don't know which designers those are. *Shrugs* I've played a few games, but I seem to have missed these. (I'm not saying they don't exist, just that my experience is limited.)

Quote from: dindenver;272068And the topic is, how much do the mechanics (not necessarily the "system" as that is too broad for this topic) affect play?

I think they have an affect, but I also think that the extent and breadth of their influence depends on the game, the group, and the individual.

Seanchai

Sean,
  OK, that makes sense. So, to put it another way. How do mechanics affect your play? Do you run from a fight when the mechanics are exceedingly lethal? Even if you are playing a brave warrior?
  Either way, why?

Quote from: dindenver;2723231) Mechanics don't change your preferred course of action, just how you feel about it afterward

This one I'm iffy on as it seems to me that many times folks don't try things unless there's rules support for their action.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;272434This one I'm iffy on as it seems to me that many times folks don't try things unless there's rules support for their action.

I agree.  I remember a 3.x game where there was an enemy fleeing on horseback.  We wanted to knock him off his horse, but the only rules we saw were for an unconscious rider to fall off his horse (and it might have been he either falls off or he rides along until the horse decides to stop).  We ended up just chasing after him and attacking until he died.  There was no trying to knock him off the horse because there was no rule for it and (perhaps more importantly) nothing on which to base such a thing.  In 4e, it would be easier to improvise a balanced attempt at knocking someone off from their horse.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;272181The next most important thing is the snacks at the game table. Sharing food is a social experience which binds people. And the kind of food they eat sets the mood. A silver service four course dinner with obscure and expensive ingredients sets a certain mood, pizza, coke and cheetos sets another mood. If one or two of the people are new to the group, eating food together is a way for them to slowly settle into the group, it gives them something to talk about, and an excuse to say nothing while others are talking. The right snacks help the people get along.

I find that snacks have nothing to do with the game for any of my groups.  I can see how it could have an impact, but do you really think your group would play differently depending upon what food you eat?

Quote from: KingSpoom;272630I find that snacks have nothing to do with the game for any of my groups.  I can see how it could have an impact, but do you really think your group would play differently depending upon what food you eat?

Kyle's the high priest of Cheetoism, the snack food guru of gurus. Of course he's going to rate snacks over piddly things like systems.

-clash

Quote from: KingSpoom;272630I find that snacks have nothing to do with the game for any of my groups.  I can see how it could have an impact, but do you really think your group would play differently depending upon what food you eat?

Yes.

Try this menu at a game session: boiled vegies for dinner, then water and plain cashews for snacks. That's it.  

Next try this menu: pizza for dinner, then coke, cheetos, chocolate biscuits.

Or perhaps try a game group where everyone hogs their snacks to themselves and doesn't share.

After that experiment, tell me that snacks don't make a difference.

I once had a game group where we had healthy snacks. The group imploded. Of course you may not see the causal relationship, but that's what happened.

Eating's a social thing, and is a big part of gaming. That's why so many of us are fat.

Quote from: flyingmice;272631Kyle's the high priest of Cheetoism, the snack food guru of gurus. Of course he's going to rate snacks over piddly things like systems.

I gave a gamer a tofu burger just to watch him cry.

Regards,
David R

Let's be fucking serious, here. Because this is a fucking serious topic. Imagine two game groups with different snacks, game groups who are otherwise identical.

Game group A:


Game group B:



Don't mess us about. You know the truth.

People. Snacks. Setting. System. In that order.

Ironically I agree with Kyle's basic assertion, it just embarrasses me that he's the spokes person for my POV sometimes.

Hmmph! I'd prefer the first actually. I like nuts and fruit. As for my gamer group, sometimes we have cheetos or chips, sometimes we have pretzels, sometimes we have pita and hummus, sometimes we have homemade cookies, it doesn't seem to matter to play. My wife and I usually serve a meal too - we're both excellent cooks, as I know Kyle is. This meal varies wildly - spaghetti with chourizo and meatballs, Indian mee goring with tofu, burgers and fries, tilapia amandine, hot dogs and baked beans, or pork tonkatsu - and again, it seems to have no effect on play. I don't think it's what we eat that's important, but the sharing food itself that matters. I seem to be a bit of a cheetoist heretic.

-clash

Quote from: flyingmice;272657Hmmph! I'd prefer the first actually. I like nuts and fruit. As for my gamer group, sometimes we have cheetos or chips, sometimes we have pretzels, sometimes we have pita and hummus, sometimes we have homemade cookies, it doesn't seem to matter to play. My wife and I usually serve a meal too - we're both excellent cooks, as I know Kyle is. This meal varies wildly - spaghetti with chourizo and meatballs, Indian mee goring with tofu, burgers and fries, tilapia amandine, hot dogs and baked beans, or pork tonkatsu - and again, it seems to have no effect on play. I don't think it's what we eat that's important, but the sharing food itself that matters. I seem to be a bit of a cheetoist heretic.

-clash

My standard gamer meal is Tacos!! Yes, that is Tacos!! I sometimes make them with chicken or beef but the fav seems to be mushrooms. Mmmm, mushroom Tacos!! are the best. Really, they are more like burritos but sometimes I do not add beans (dangerous substance with gamers).

And I am with you. Many types of snacks, from healthy to not. Maybe if we dip Kyle's nuts in chocolate?

Bill

ETA: You know Clash, Linda really likes the idea of putting out a "Gamer's Cookbook". We have fights over the title. I like "To Serve Gamers" and she think "Gamer's Cookbook". We should collaborate.