Quote from: tenbones on October 04, 2023, 10:53:31 PM

Quote from: jhkim on October 04, 2023, 01:03:17 PM
The problem I've more commonly run into is that it's easy to justify each individual PC and have ramifications - but the group of them are implausible as a whole. I had this with my dragon apocalypse game, and just accepted the problem and moved on.

In most of my other games, I have a premise that all PC concepts should link up to. In my current campaign, it is a semi-organization (agents of Ancestor-King Pachakuti). In another, it was a common cause (find and restore the lost temple). I think that works a little better, but it does restrict options.

Well that's why session zero is there to contextualize what/where the game is starting. Getting players on-board with proper character concepts shouldn't be an issue for you as a GM - if you're proposing a pirate themed starting point, and you've done your prep-work on the region and its intrigues and intricacies, it's the player that is unreasonable to ask to play a Dhampyre which may not even exist in your setting.

My problem isn't an inappropriate character for the setting. It's character A who is fine in the setting, and character B who is fine for the setting, but they don't fit well together.

I think often D&D players don't mind this. It is a trope for PCs to just meet each other in a tavern and decide to adventure together. For me, though, that sometimes stretches my suspension of disbelief.

Quote from: Fheredin on October 05, 2023, 08:04:06 AM
Player characters are exceptions to the flow of the normal universe practically by their nature. It isn't that they should outright break the internal consistency and lore of the game world, but a good PC definitely makes those squirm a bit.

I don't mind PCs who are way out of their normal element, but it adds a character creation requirement that they have a backstory which explains how this character wound up traveling 1000 miles+ in an era where most people only travel 20-30 miles in their lifetimes.

I'd agree for a single character. The problem is that if you have three unrelated backstories like this, it stretches things a lot more than one backstory like this.

Quote from: Zalman on October 04, 2023, 07:06:20 AM
At the start of a campaign, as characters are introduced to each other, I often experience a bit of cognitive dissonance. I want my world to be well-realized, with lots of different cultural, regional, and racial background options.

The part I struggle with is justifying how all these diverse characters happen to wind up in the same place in this vast world.

First, it seems to require the existence of a more cosmopolitan area, where all these diverse types might gather. That alone is sometimes contrary to the nature of the setting.

Even assuming that, say, a bit city exist for these diverse types to gather, I'm left trying to balance (in my head) how did the characters got there from their diverse regions of origin in a fashion that allows them to still be 1st level?

If travel is arduous in the campaign world, how did the PCs manage to travel so far and still be relatively inexperienced?

If easy travel options are available, how do these diverse cultures remain differentiated for long?

What tricks, justifications, world-building conceits, etc. do you use address this issue?

Greetings!

Good Afternoon, Zalman! I sympathize with your struggles.

However, it is important to note that contrary to the dynamic promoted throughout the gaming hobby concerning mideaval travel--they are thoroughly *Provincial*. It is like all of these people have only ever read other game hobby articles, or at most a few books set in some backwater of Medieval Britain.

They are wrong.

Britain, and most of the people living in Medieval Britain, were often more or less isolated and often considerably ignorant. They were not yet the seasoned, worldly, and well-travelled Englishmen of the British Empire during the Age of Victoria. No, they were generally isolated and ignorant, historically, economically, and socially.

Getting away from that, we learn that a young Viking woman--a rare woman warrior and marauder--had spent much of her early adult years traveling, raiding, and plundering exotic places such as Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, Morocco, Iceland, Greenland--and Vineland--all before she was 30 years old. The Arab chronicler, Ibn Fadlan, travelled throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and the Baltic--again, while he was still a relatively young man. Young, ordinary soldiers in Caesar's Roman Legions had been everywhere in Western Europe, from the dark, snowy forests of Germania, the rich farmlands of Gaul, the rugged hills of Spain, the shores of Britain, to the sandy banks of the Nile River in Egypt--likewise, all before they had reached the age of 30.

Meanwhile, further East, Chinese, Indian, and various other Asians, Persians, and Turks had been moving all about, traveling as soldiers, raiders, merchants, diplomats, and religious monks. Most of them were younger folks--but also be aware that some older, greybeards took up their staff and made *epic* journeys of their own--typically on the back of a horse or camel, but sometimes, yes, even on foot, making epic marches of thousands of miles, and spending three, four, or five years to reach a destination, whether it was Russia, India, or somewhere in China. They marched BY FOOT through sun-blazing deserts, rain-swallowed jungles, and icy, forbidding mountains. All when they were in their 50's or 60's.

My point being while traveling for ordinary people was not as common or easy as it is for most modern people--the impression or insistence by people largely within the hobby circles that such Medieval travel was rare and extremely difficult for anyone that wasn't rich and elite--is just nonsense. Traveling for ordinary people in Ancient and Medieval times was not as common as in the Modern Age, but it also was not as rare or difficult, or class restricted as some historians and many gamers like to maintain.

Traveling in Ancient and Medieval times was not just about expenses, that was part of it--but more importantly, individual temperament and motivation. If a poor, broke, 60-year-old Buddhist Monk in India can spend three years walking on foot through mountains and deserts to get to China to bring some copies of books to fellow scholars--virtually anyone, anywhere, can find a way to get anywhere else.

All throughout Central Asia, the Great Steppes, the Gates of Persia, and into the foothills of the Himalaya Mountains in India, there were all sorts of ordinary people meeting and rubbing shoulders together. Indians, Kazakhs, Mongols, Persians, Arabs, Chinese, Greeks, Turks, and Slavs. Along the way, a few other sorts of Europeans managed to get over there, but such a vast environment was a wild, crazy region, where virtually anything could happen, or anyone could be encountered. Vikings, barbarian horsemen, wealthy merchants, daring explorers, ordinary soldiers and mercenaries, besides hard-working craftsmen, and beautiful dancing girls. Yes, girls managed to travel about, as well. It all gets down to motivation, and how determined a person is to leave one place and get to another place that is entirely different.

Remember, history is FULL of outlandish and incredible events and stories--Truth is Stranger than Fiction! I am also not for a moment suggesting that you should make every place in your campaign some cosmopolitan hotspot like Seattle.

Instead, think about places like Samarkand in 1250 AD.; D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2023, 01:44:21 PM
I think often D&D players don't mind this. It is a trope for PCs to just meet each other in a tavern and decide to adventure together. For me, though, that sometimes stretches my suspension of disbelief.

I've had this happen in real life. Its pretty much how my first gaming group got started.

And bars and nightclubs have been gathering places for all sorts of activities so its a thing.

Personally I though do prefer at least one person was actively trying to form a group. No ones just going to gather and go adventuring unless someone makes it known they are going adventuring. Stick a note on a board, visit tables and ask, do SOMETHING!

Just want to say thank you everyone so far for all the thoughtful responses and great advice. I'm chewing on all of this!

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2023, 01:44:21 PM

My problem isn't an inappropriate character for the setting. It's character A who is fine in the setting, and character B who is fine for the setting, but they don't fit well together.

I think often D&D players don't mind this. It is a trope for PCs to just meet each other in a tavern and decide to adventure together. For me, though, that sometimes stretches my suspension of disbelief.

Ah! Yeah, that's a player issue, not mine. However, I have an inverted version of this problem. I have this issue where players assume their PC *should* be accepted by the other PC's *because* of the meta-notion that the players is in the "group". It's similar to what you're saying, but the framing is a little different. It's a player problem - where the D&D trope "This is my character (free of context), I'm in the party! whee!" I don't enforce how the players play with one another, but my players are pretty mature.

This definitely doesn't make it easier - especially for younger players that walk into the group assuming whatever they make will accepted in-game "just because". Nope, they have to prove to the group their PC is worth keeping around.

Quote from: SHARK on October 05, 2023, 05:40:00 PM
Getting away from that, we learn that a young Viking woman--a rare woman warrior and marauder--had spent much of her early adult years traveling, raiding, and plundering exotic places such as Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, Morocco, Iceland, Greenland--and Vineland--all before she was 30 years old. The Arab chronicler, Ibn Fadlan, travelled throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and the Baltic--again, while he was still a relatively young man. Young, ordinary soldiers in Caesar's Roman Legions had been everywhere in Western Europe, from the dark, snowy forests of Germania, the rich farmlands of Gaul, the rugged hills of Spain, the shores of Britain, to the sandy banks of the Nile River in Egypt--likewise, all before they had reached the age of 30.

Very insightful, Shark. Even lowly rural peasants might be granted leave by their lord to make a pilgrimage. It would be a once in a lifetime experience, but these games are all about once in a lifetime experiences.

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 06, 2023, 10:41:16 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 05, 2023, 05:40:00 PM
Getting away from that, we learn that a young Viking woman--a rare woman warrior and marauder--had spent much of her early adult years traveling, raiding, and plundering exotic places such as Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, Morocco, Iceland, Greenland--and Vineland--all before she was 30 years old. The Arab chronicler, Ibn Fadlan, travelled throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and the Baltic--again, while he was still a relatively young man. Young, ordinary soldiers in Caesar's Roman Legions had been everywhere in Western Europe, from the dark, snowy forests of Germania, the rich farmlands of Gaul, the rugged hills of Spain, the shores of Britain, to the sandy banks of the Nile River in Egypt--likewise, all before they had reached the age of 30.

Very insightful, Shark. Even lowly rural peasants might be granted leave by their lord to make a pilgrimage. It would be a once in a lifetime experience, but these games are all about once in a lifetime experiences.

Or life ending experiences. Sometimes you get a rich traveling history. Other times you get:

" He was gonna be a shrimp boat captain but instead he died right by that river in Germania. That's all I have to say about that."

Then by the gods, we shall salute Bubba in Elysium!

Quote from: tenbones on October 06, 2023, 10:12:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on October 05, 2023, 01:44:21 PM
My problem isn't an inappropriate character for the setting. It's character A who is fine in the setting, and character B who is fine for the setting, but they don't fit well together.

I think often D&D players don't mind this. It is a trope for PCs to just meet each other in a tavern and decide to adventure together. For me, though, that sometimes stretches my suspension of disbelief.

Ah! Yeah, that's a player issue, not mine. However, I have an inverted version of this problem. I have this issue where players assume their PC *should* be accepted by the other PC's *because* of the meta-notion that the players is in the "group". It's similar to what you're saying, but the framing is a little different. It's a player problem - where the D&D trope "This is my character (free of context), I'm in the party! whee!" I don't enforce how the players play with one another, but my players are pretty mature.

This definitely doesn't make it easier - especially for younger players that walk into the group assuming whatever they make will accepted in-game "just because". Nope, they have to prove to the group their PC is worth keeping around.

Yeah, this sounds like essentially the same issue. Yours sounds like it is happening when a new player joins into an existing party. I've seen that, but I was thinking more about in session zero, when all the players create characters, and we're trying to establish how they come together.

In non-D&D systems, it has worked better for players to start suggesting character ideas early on before they have a full concept, and to get an idea of the party before everyone has their character concepts solidified.

There's a related issue (or possibly feature) of systems with random lifepath and/or other background features. Last weekend, I tried out "Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation" -- where players get a bunch of random origin and lifepath stuff for their characters. It's then a group exercise about how these random people get together to form a party.

This reminds me of the first episode of Robin of Sherwood. The merry men defeated the sorcerer Simon De Bellam and the sorcerers charmed, a Saracen joined the gang. Seemed improbable but what was  Saracen in medieval Sherwood gonna do?

Quote from: rytrasmi on October 06, 2023, 10:41:16 AM

Quote from: SHARK on October 05, 2023, 05:40:00 PM
Getting away from that, we learn that a young Viking woman--a rare woman warrior and marauder--had spent much of her early adult years traveling, raiding, and plundering exotic places such as Britain, Ireland, France, Spain, Morocco, Iceland, Greenland--and Vineland--all before she was 30 years old. The Arab chronicler, Ibn Fadlan, travelled throughout Eastern Europe, the Middle East, Russia, and the Baltic--again, while he was still a relatively young man. Young, ordinary soldiers in Caesar's Roman Legions had been everywhere in Western Europe, from the dark, snowy forests of Germania, the rich farmlands of Gaul, the rugged hills of Spain, the shores of Britain, to the sandy banks of the Nile River in Egypt--likewise, all before they had reached the age of 30.

Very insightful, Shark. Even lowly rural peasants might be granted leave by their lord to make a pilgrimage. It would be a once in a lifetime experience, but these games are all about once in a lifetime experiences.

Greetings!

Hey there Rytrasmi! Nice Recruiting poster! *Laughing*

Yes, very interesting! Indeed, I have also read of oftentimes surprising historical accounts of rural peasants or tradesmen--or the baker's elder sister--saving up the funds, and going on a Holy Pilgrimage to Rome, or to Spain. Besides that, there were traveling craftsmen, mercenaries, adventurers!--as well as explorers and scholars that all managed to travel all over the place. Some of the "conventional wisdom" of gamers in particular about history is just laughable. You see the same kind of blinkered thinking about the size of armies--"Well, Duke William of Normandy invaded Britain with only an army of 15,000 men!"

Yes, and Rome raised up an army of 80,000 men to fight Hannibal and they all died in one day at the Battle of Cannae. Vladimir of the Kievan Rus raised an army of over 100,000 troops to fight against the Pecheneg barbarian tribes. Ashoka, the Emperor of the Chandra Gupta Empire, had an army of over 400,000 infantry, 50,000 cavalry, and 3,000 war elephants.

The first Emperor of China had an army of over 1 million troops. The emperor of China and all these other examples are also from 500 to 1,000 years *before* the Battle of Hastings in 1066 AD. Clearly, different leadership, and different economies can accomplish far different results. As soon as you get away from this straitjacket of some poor Medieval Village In Britain--you find entirely different things going on, and a very different picture of ancient and Medieval life emerges--as well as the different dynamics and capabilities.

You see the same kind of provincial myopia in regards to many such people's conception of Medieval and Ancient traveling.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on October 06, 2023, 04:22:28 PM
Some of the "conventional wisdom" of gamers in particular about history is just laughable. You see the same kind of blinkered thinking about the size of armies--"Well, Duke William of Normandy invaded Britain with only an army of 15,000 men!"

Well, given the fact that most Americans <50 don't have even a 5th grade education that's understandable.