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Author Topic: Dissonance between Low Fantasy Humanocentrism and Mythological High Fantasy  (Read 2112 times)

SHARK

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Greetings!

In reviewing all of the various campaign arguments and styles, I admit that I sometimes jump back and forth between favoring low fantasy humanocentrism and high fantasy mythology. On one hand, there is a whole lot of strengths to running a low fantasy humanocentric campaign. Furthermore, I often eye-rollingly lament the current deep trend of embracing fantastic zoo-like parties of rainbow hippos. So much of the style, approach, and presentation of these rainbow hippo parties is mind-numbingly absurd.

However, it must also honestly be said that throughout historical mythology, there is a powerful theme of high fantasy. Weird, fantastic animal races, and lots of human/animal and human/monster interbreeding going on. Sometimes it is unusual, but in many instances, it's everywhere. I've also found that in looking through much of the mythological roots and stories, most of the time the presentation of human/animal and human/monster hybrids honestly seems entirely awesome, cool, and very interesting! Embracing any number of them would seem to greatly enrich any campaign. Why are fantastic mutant hybrids cool and awesome in mythology, but the rainbow hippo parties are fucking stupid?

What do you think, friends?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Pat
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What specific fantastic mutant hybrids from mythology do you find engaging? That might help pin down why you like them.

SHARK

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What specific fantastic mutant hybrids from mythology do you find engaging? That might help pin down why you like them.

Greetings!

Hey there Pat! Well, in mythology, there is virtually everything found--half demons, half dragons, half giants, angel-blooded or deva-blooded, half faeries, as well as a huge range of the animal hybrids, like Minotaurs, wolf-men, bear-men, insect people, and more. Achilles was believed to be descended from a Nymph, for another example. Historical mythology seems to embrace all of these varieties as being pretty common.

I just find though that if one embraces such, that such a dynamic works against a low-fantasy, humanocentric world model in some fairly strong ways. It seems to me that there is a definite tension and dissonance there.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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Pat
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You seem to be referencing a lot of Greek mythology, plus some biblical apocrypha and Hindu mythology. There are some similarities between them.

They don't feature races as much as they feature spiritual beings, or little gods. Achilles isn't wasn't born to a monster, rather his mother was the granddaughter of a Titan. He had divine blood in his veins. The minotaur is the child of a perfect bull created by Poseidon. The Nephilim are half-angels, perhaps half-giants, cursed and blessed, and above humanity in many ways. Many of the heroes of the Ramayana and Mahabharata are avatars of gods. These are all variants on a concept, perhaps best exemplified by the hero of Greek myth, who usually traces their lineage to a divine figure, thus explaining their superhuman feats via a supernal origin.

That makes race less about biology, and more about the characteristics of divinity that you inherit from specific parents. You're the son of Eros, or the granddaughter of Tethys, and your traits reflect their nature rather than some kind of species.

Shrieking Banshee

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Personaly I prefer humancentrism with 'alien' spikes. The other (wether good or bad) stands out so much more when there is a well known mundanity.
A dragon is scarier when they are rare.

In party compositions I recomend that only 1-2 out of 5-6 players are allowed to play hybrids or the like. Makes them stand out.

Shasarak

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In a humanocentric world I think that the average adventuring party would most likely be represented by 4 Hobbits, an Elf, a Dwarf, a home brew Human and a Human.
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Steven Mitchell

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For me, the difference is that the mythological ones are typical characters while the game "characters" are often not--especially the way the game presents them.  This is aside from simple questions of stereotypes (which can be useful as a starting place) and more into the problems of turning a single instance into a character "thing".

For example, the Medusa is character in the story.  A medusa is a thing.  Aragorn is a character.  Every D&D ranger having spells so that they can do the "hands of the healer" part is a thing.  Even Drizzt as originally conceived is a character.  Every later ranger dual-wielding is a thing.

The same thing happens to mythological creatures, even when they were kind of a "thing" in their original incarnation.  Your random talking rabbit in a fable isn't much of a character, but it has little elements of character coming out. 

It's also why I don't mind having such creatures in my game when they are embedded into the setting and being played by the kind of players that enjoy that mythological aspect.  Because they aren't stuck on the sophomoric, Joseph Campbell, deconstruct everything into types view of myth.  Instead, they can use the animal as a launching point in which to build a character that goes and does something.

Kyle Aaron

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Shrieking Banshee

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In a humanocentric world I think that the average adventuring party would most likely be represented by 4 Hobbits, an Elf, a Dwarf, a home brew Human and a Human.

Eh, I think it lacks an angel (don't worry it will be in human disguise as to not go against the aesthetic).

Shasarak

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In a humanocentric world I think that the average adventuring party would most likely be represented by 4 Hobbits, an Elf, a Dwarf, a home brew Human and a Human.

Eh, I think it lacks an angel (don't worry it will be in human disguise as to not go against the aesthetic).

Thats just a DM PC
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Why are fantastic mutant hybrids cool and awesome in mythology, but the rainbow hippo parties are (effing) stupid?

I think it's probably because one of the critical things that separates modern fantasy, even high-powered/high-magic fantasy, from mythological epics is that the myths don't for the most part operate on practical logic. The Minotaur is a miraculous wonder born of a god's power and a woman's desire; a whole race of minotaurs starts inviting atmosphere-destroying questions like, do female minotaurs have udders rather than breasts? Do minotaurs have multiple stomachs? One of my favourite passages in the Chronicles of Narnia comes from The Silver Chair, where in the denouement chapters, the Earth children Eustace and Jill are told something they'd never thought of about Centaurs:

Quote
"Why, Son of Adam, don’t you understand? A Centaur has a man-stomach and a horse-stomach. And of course both want breakfast. So first of all he has porridge and pavenders and kidneys and bacon and omelette and cold ham and toast and marmalade and coffee and beer. And after that he attends to the horse part of himself by grazing for an hour or so and finishing up with a hot mash, some oats, and a bag of sugar. That’s why it’s such a serious thing to ask a Centaur to stay for the weekend. A very serious thing indeed."

So the trick, I think, to bring high-fantastical elements into an essentially humanocentric world is to always keep in mind:

1) There has to be an interplay between the mythic resonance and the practical logic of the concepts.
2) The mythic elements always have to be scarce enough that their presence doesn't change the basic equations of daily life for most.
3) The practical logic should never be taken far enough that the myths lose their resonance. Dragons in Westeros are huge, mysterious and scarce, and are critical to the plot; dragons in Harry Potter are basically just exotic animals and incidental curiosities.

The rainbow hippos become stupid mostly because they disregard mythic resonance and meaning in favour of the exoticism of mere novelty, because the philosophy is to exalt every individual PC as something unique and unprecedented.
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SHARK

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Why are fantastic mutant hybrids cool and awesome in mythology, but the rainbow hippo parties are (effing) stupid?

I think it's probably because one of the critical things that separates modern fantasy, even high-powered/high-magic fantasy, from mythological epics is that the myths don't for the most part operate on practical logic. The Minotaur is a miraculous wonder born of a god's power and a woman's desire; a whole race of minotaurs starts inviting atmosphere-destroying questions like, do female minotaurs have udders rather than breasts? Do minotaurs have multiple stomachs? One of my favourite passages in the Chronicles of Narnia comes from The Silver Chair, where in the denouement chapters, the Earth children Eustace and Jill are told something they'd never thought of about Centaurs:

Quote
"Why, Son of Adam, don’t you understand? A Centaur has a man-stomach and a horse-stomach. And of course both want breakfast. So first of all he has porridge and pavenders and kidneys and bacon and omelette and cold ham and toast and marmalade and coffee and beer. And after that he attends to the horse part of himself by grazing for an hour or so and finishing up with a hot mash, some oats, and a bag of sugar. That’s why it’s such a serious thing to ask a Centaur to stay for the weekend. A very serious thing indeed."

So the trick, I think, to bring high-fantastical elements into an essentially humanocentric world is to always keep in mind:

1) There has to be an interplay between the mythic resonance and the practical logic of the concepts.
2) The mythic elements always have to be scarce enough that their presence doesn't change the basic equations of daily life for most.
3) The practical logic should never be taken far enough that the myths lose their resonance. Dragons in Westeros are huge, mysterious and scarce, and are critical to the plot; dragons in Harry Potter are basically just exotic animals and incidental curiosities.

The rainbow hippos become stupid mostly because they disregard mythic resonance and meaning in favour of the exoticism of mere novelty, because the philosophy is to exalt every individual PC as something unique and unprecedented.

Greetings!

Very true, Stephen Tannhauser! I agree. The quest for a shallow kind of exoticism seems to almost be a purpose to itself. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
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There are many genres of fantasy. Many. Pick one.

Thorn Drumheller

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Hey SHARK, good topic.

We've played loads of rpgs over the years and we've seen .... well probably not everything but we've seen loads of race....er lineages.

I, personally, don't mind when WotC would introduce a new playable race but the problem is that then the player's think since it's official then it's playable in the DM's sandbox. Now I know that's a generalization, but the anecdotes are too common to ignore. I know it's not just a generational thing cause player's all throughout my time with rpgs have wanted to play 'the coolnest' option. I mean I remember the letters in Dragon about the Drow.

The thing is, there is no cohesion in official WotC products. It's just a toolkit. That's not always a bad thing but for me it really boils down to a gamemaster that sets the limits and sticks with them, despite their best friend wanting to play 'the coolnest' thing.
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tenbones

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Greetings!

In reviewing all of the various campaign arguments and styles, I admit that I sometimes jump back and forth between favoring low fantasy humanocentrism and high fantasy mythology. On one hand, there is a whole lot of strengths to running a low fantasy humanocentric campaign. Furthermore, I often eye-rollingly lament the current deep trend of embracing fantastic zoo-like parties of rainbow hippos. So much of the style, approach, and presentation of these rainbow hippo parties is mind-numbingly absurd.

However, it must also honestly be said that throughout historical mythology, there is a powerful theme of high fantasy. Weird, fantastic animal races, and lots of human/animal and human/monster interbreeding going on. Sometimes it is unusual, but in many instances, it's everywhere. I've also found that in looking through much of the mythological roots and stories, most of the time the presentation of human/animal and human/monster hybrids honestly seems entirely awesome, cool, and very interesting! Embracing any number of them would seem to greatly enrich any campaign. Why are fantastic mutant hybrids cool and awesome in mythology, but the rainbow hippo parties are fucking stupid?

What do you think, friends?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

There is this game... festooned with Red Hair... a beaten stepchild among the siblings of its fellow game-brethren. It speaks of these ideas you crave, forgotten and unsung.

Lo! Let me tell you of Talislanta. Where there are chromatically tattooed warrior clones, demons and creatures of alien myth. And NO ELVES (and no humans).