Quote from: The Butcher;838431Ravenswing's is good, but I was thinking the lady-in-waiting might plant evidence that the Prince's wife and Saint-Giron are having an affair.

Yeah, but in 17th century France and depending on his faction, that may well not cause the guy any political problems at all.

Quote from: Ravenswing;838653Yeah, but in 17th century France and depending on his faction, that may well not cause the guy any political problems at all.

So you plant evidence that the Prince and Saint-Giron are having an affair.... and let his wife find it.

I agree with everyone who said that important nobles got away with lots of stuff. Non of the approaches are a slam dunk. The Prince may be able to withstand any one of the various plots.

Ideally the attack needs to drive a wedge between the Prince and some of his supporters. His main supporters are the Grands the great Sword Nobles of France, like the other Princes, Dukes, and important Marquises. These are the heads of major noble families of great power and influence. His secondary supporters are the lesser Sword Nobles. Both groups of Sword Nobles are worried about the erosion of their ancient rights, privileges, and wealth and the growth of royal power, the state bureaucracy, and the new Robe Nobles who are part of both.

One thing to remember is that Guy doesn't actually need to ruin the Prince, he just needs to decrease his current influence (which has increased) or his status. Any attack that can drive a wedge between the Prince and some of his supporters will probably do the trick. Also anything that would effect his status, though that is probably harder to mess with. One example would be the birth of a new heir to the throne. Historically that doesn't happen for a more than a decade.

Quote from: jibbajibba;838681So you plant evidence that the Prince and Saint-Giron are having an affair.... and let his wife find it.

This has the advantage of driving a wedge between the Prince and his wife. They have a long history together and her family is a big supporter of the Prince so that would not be easy, but...

Quote from: Ravenswing;838653Yeah, but in 17th century France and depending on his faction, that may well not cause the guy any political problems at all.

People got away with sleeping with the boss' wife? :eek:

I do admit to not being particularly familiar with C17 France beyond, well, swashbuckling movies.

Quote from: Ravenswing;838653Yeah, but in 17th century France and depending on his faction, that may well not cause the guy any political problems at all.

True, but it gives his opponents fuel for a mocking campaign.

Quote from: The Butcher;838706People got away with sleeping with the boss' wife? :eek:

I do admit to not being particularly familiar with C17 France beyond, well, swashbuckling movies.

Oh, simple.  See, everyone was having an affair.  Everyone was having an affair.  The notion that you could possibly be faithful to your own spouse -- never mind loving that spouse -- was excused only for the adolescent, the idiot and the holier-than-thou camps.  I'm sure it was the case that certain powerful men might prefer that if their wives had lovers, those lovers be men they could control, or at the least from whose hands they weren't too afraid of betrayal.

IIRC one of the key points of the French nobility of that time was that while could lose property, they most definitely could not lose face. What about going the Cyrano de Bergerac route and hire a poet to craft a devastating piece which the PCs spread about? When revenge is taken against the poet, the PCs may lie in wait and use the poet as bait before ambushing the attackers. Of course, the poet writes of this as well, furthering the disrepute of the noble, and the PCs must secret him out of Paris.

Quote from: Ravenswing;838713Oh, simple.  See, everyone was having an affair.  Everyone was having an affair.  The notion that you could possibly be faithful to your own spouse -- never mind loving that spouse -- was excused only for the adolescent, the idiot and the holier-than-thou camps.  I'm sure it was the case that certain powerful men might prefer that if their wives had lovers, those lovers be men they could control, or at the least from whose hands they weren't too afraid of betrayal.

I had a long post responding, but I deleted it. Damn user error!

While affairs were very common and even expected to some extent, not everyone had them. There were a number of devout nobles male and female who took holy orders after the death of their only spouse. Absent evidence to the contrary, it's reasonable to assume those folks didn't have affairs.

Quote from: jeff37923;838717IIRC one of the key points of the French nobility of that time was that while could lose property, they most definitely could not lose face. What about going the Cyrano de Bergerac route and hire a poet to craft a devastating piece which the PCs spread about? When revenge is taken against the poet, the PCs may lie in wait and use the poet as bait before ambushing the attackers. Of course, the poet writes of this as well, furthering the disrepute of the noble, and the PCs must secret him out of Paris.

Yes. Not being seen to lose honor was very important. Lying, exaggerating, and the most ridiculous flattery was common. Being caught in a lie or admitting to a lie was very bad. Accusing someone of lying were a pretty common way to end up with a duel on one's hands.

They have used a version of this already. One of the PCs, Gaston Thibeault, is a poet and playwright and he used that skill to bait the Baron Villemorin. In one sense that is what drove the Baron to the extreme of kidnapping and threatening to murder children to arrange the duel he wanted. They would want to be careful not to be connected to the poet and possibly to have the verses published anonymously so as not to earn the wrath of the Prince. His reach is longer than three feet of steel.

This is additional information about the Prince and Princess that Guy obtains from spies, contacts, and rumors at court.

Given that information, and that you are better off leaving assets within the house for later (instead of burning them for rather weak rumormongering), looking at his associations at noblesse d'epee seems the better bet. And again, the big thing is to question their judgment amid the eyes of their peers. Gossip of amoral things that are likely de rigueur among peers will likely not do much face damage. Doing it in public and getting caught, shaming hosts and guests alike, will however.

The trick is making the jaded care. The fastest way to do that is shake them from their comforts. And the fastest way to do that is bring the scandal indoors where they think they are "safe" among like-minded predators at play. Nothing like a public display flaunting indecency to challenge the honor and respect of the assemblage.