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Author Topic: Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds  (Read 1822 times)

Omega

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Disabilities and Fantasy or SF Workarounds
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2020, 11:35:35 PM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146373
And yet Geordi's visor got lost or broken in at least one episode. And was the source for drama in several episodes in other ways.

Let's see, a seeing character can get blinded, but a blind character with some sort of workaround shouldn't loose said workaround because... Reasons?

Lets not forget that Geordi's visor also...

A: Was painful to wear.
B: Did not allow him to see as a normal person till much later in the series.

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2020, 11:43:42 PM »
Quote from: Omega;1146477
Lets not forget that Geordi's visor also...

A: Was painful to wear.
B: Did not allow him to see as a normal person till much later in the series.

Shhhhhhhh You're breaking the narrative
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LiferGamer

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« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2020, 11:54:16 PM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146384
It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives.

Society views people with disabilities as being less deserving of life, which is ableism. There are numerous accounts of disabled people being murdered (or allowed to die when they could be saved) under the justification that their disabled life wasn't worth living. Especially filicide. That's a viewpoint which presents a real and ever present danger to disabled people.

We don't currently have the means to meaningfully treat the overwhelming majority of disabilities, much less sell miracle cures, so trying to force a non-existent cure on disabled people is counterproductive anyway. When we can regenerate whole limbs and functional nervous systems, then we can worry about the ethics of trying to force disabled people to be cured of their disabilities.

Real life is more complicated than "disabled people should be cured."


This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?
Your Forgotten Realms was my first The Last Jedi.

If the party is gonna die, they want to be riding and blasting/hacking away at a separate one of Tiamat's heads as she plummets towards earth with broken wings while Solars and Planars sing.

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #33 on: August 26, 2020, 12:15:49 AM »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146482
This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?

ElfGames make you worship Satan morphed into ElfGames make you an istophobe and kill disabled people.
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjC7-w5KDKNiD-k0tVo1DPw?view_as=subscriber

Omega

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« Reply #34 on: August 26, 2020, 12:23:09 AM »
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1146384
It's more complicated than that, I'm afraid.

You don't speak for all disabled people. Some disabled people take pride in their lives.

There is a word for this... what is it? Oh yeah. Brainwashing.

Odds are some of the ones saying stuff like this were born that way. I touched on this in an older thread but will repeat it here for those of you who arent aware.

There is a huge difference between being born disabled and being rendered disabled. And the reactions for those rendered disabled can be much akin to CP2020's cyberpsychosis. Some people simply can not take being disabled and unfortunately some freak out.

Being born disabled is a massive advantage and for many of us its effectively a natural workaround as we do not have to adjust. This is our lives. We tend to be fairly well adapted to our conditions. Here is where you most likely get people saying its ok to be disabled. Because to them they essentially arent. Or are suffering from a form of impairment that allows them to still function normally, or close enough.

Personal example: I've never known a world that isnt constantly in motion. I am very well adjusted to that fact to the point that it effectively doesnt effect me except when Im going through periods where its more pronounced. Or in cases where high balance skills are required. Tightrope walker is not one of my job descriptions. heh.

Im not even sure how that would fit into game terms.

But I'd NEVER tell someone that they have to accept being disabled and that looking for a cure is wrong. And us 'adjusted' should NEVER tell anyone who has had a disability inflicted on them that they should accept it and not look for cures.

All that said. It is perfectly fine to be perfectly fine with your disability.

Omega

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« Reply #35 on: August 26, 2020, 12:31:07 AM »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146469
Again OSR/D&D type games are just the wrong format for it, I'll fall back on gurps here - if it isn't worth points it's neither an advantage or a disadvantage and therefore it's as important as the color of the characters hair.
In other words it's just that look at me I'm special.

Not necessarily.

For some it is adding a challenge, or potential challenge. Some players love this stuff. They want challenges and problems to overcome.

Unfortunately for others its just min/maxing points they think will never impact the character. And are often right as most DMs do not know how to handle these things and tend to ignore them after. Its one of the bigger reasons to consider not having disabilities in your system and something I put some thought into before writing my book and publishing it.

Shasarak

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« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2020, 12:33:59 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1146476
Depressed? No meds for you. Be happy you are depressed!


That may actually work better then you think.
Life is Hard; Play Short

Omega

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« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2020, 12:46:26 AM »
Quote from: LiferGamer;1146482
This isn't a discussion about real life.  I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe the point is, in a setting where you can be cured, why would you choose not to be?

Easiest reason is that the character sees their disability as an advantage somehow. A blind person living with a Medusa would likely not want to be cured.

The other reason might be they have some compensation sense, or power that they would lose if they were cured. This pops up more often in superhero settings.

Or the really weird examples like I get to enjoy in real life. Were I cured today. Id have the problem that Im really adjusted to my problem. Id have to now adjust to that. And it can take a long time. Im currently looking at cures for various problems and this was mentioned right off by the doctors so its a known thing apparently. One of my other disabilities medical science has not yet caught up with solving.

On the other hand magic or super science might be able to both cure a person and instantly adjust them to being normal.

Which brings up the interesting question.

Just how holistic is a cure in say D&D? Or even from edition to edition. Do you get a free adjustment to being cured? I assume Gurps has this covered from multiple angles. What about Cyberpunk 2020? I do not recall Shadowrun for example ever touching on adjustment phases.

Omega

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« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2020, 12:59:10 AM »
Quote from: Shasarak;1146495
That may actually work better then you think.

I know at least two people who prefer being depressed to being on meds. And two who very much do not want to be off the meds. I also know two who are not on meds that really the hell should be. (Being on Suicide Watch is the diametric opposite of fun.)
Im not sure a person suffering depression could ever be really ok with that. But odds are some can adjust. Possibly really well. Something worth researching for me to do now.

I suspect it loops around again to people who are adjusted to their disability/s. And the level of adjustment.

RollingBones

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« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2020, 12:59:37 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1146494
Not necessarily.

For some it is adding a challenge, or potential challenge. Some players love this stuff. They want challenges and problems to overcome.

Unfortunately for others its just min/maxing points they think will never impact the character. And are often right as most DMs do not know how to handle these things and tend to ignore them after. Its one of the bigger reasons to consider not having disabilities in your system and something I put some thought into before writing my book and publishing it.

I'd be interested in more detail of your thought process on the 'right' way to effectively  include disabilities in a system (as opposed to how to include them in specific scenarios, or at the table). I'm at that point now, with a merits & flaws kind of system, and getting the balance is quite tricky. For instance, I have paraplegia listed as a 5 point disadvantage, but elsewhere I have a CoC style one-shot in a 1930's historic setting.

Although a paraplegic character might not be inconceivable  (actually a tidy idea for a researcher type), they're going to be almost unplayable in this scenario (ie. Hunted though a muddy natural forest in the middle of a storm, then up and down stairs in an old building). The entire focus of the game would shift from investigating the horror, to moving the disabled character. I know some would suggest I, as the writer, am the one creating the problem, but rewriting the module to present a too conveniently accessible world, or just hand-waving away any difficulties, flies in the face of verisimilitude (there's that word again).

Historic settings produce a quite different challenge to fantasy settings.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2020, 01:03:24 AM by RollingBones »

Omega

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« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2020, 01:08:58 AM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146489
ElfGames make you worship Satan morphed into ElfGames make you an istophobe and kill disabled people.

Im afraid of satanists elfs so I sacrificed these cripples to god? er... Tree God?

ahem.

But this is exactly what we warned would happen when this latest iteration of this nuttery started. Sure enough it is again hopping from one thing to another like the disease it is. "Think of the Children! Think of the Women! Think of the LGBT! Think of the Minorities! Think of the Cripples!" Eventually it will come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" and so on till it comes around again.

GeekyBugle

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« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2020, 01:11:55 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1146502
Im afraid of satanists elfs so I sacrificed these cripples to god? er... Tree God?

ahem.

But this is exactly what we warned would happen when this latest iteration of this nuttery started. Sure enough it is again hopping from one thing to another like the disease it is. "Think of the Children! Think of the Women! Think of the LGBT! Think of the Minorities! Think of the Cripples!" Eventually it will come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" and so on till it comes around again.

I bet you a beer it will never come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" unless it is to further demonize them, which they are already doing IMHO.
“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

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Omega

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« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2020, 01:23:21 AM »
Quote from: RollingBones;1146500
I'd be interested in more detail of your thought process on the 'right' way to effectively  include disabilities in a system (as opposed to how to include them in specific scenarios, or at the table). I'm at that point now, with a merits & flaws kind of system, and getting the balance is quite tricky. For instance, I have paraplegia listed as a 5 point disadvantage, but elsewhere I have a CoC style one-shot in a 1930's historic setting.

Although a paraplegic character might not be inconceivable  (actually a tidy idea for a researcher type), they're going to be almost unplayable in this scenario (ie. Hunted though a muddy natural forest in the middle of a storm, then up and down stairs in an old building). The entire focus of the game would shift from investigating the horror, to moving the disabled character. I know some would suggest I, as the writer, am the one creating the problem, but rewriting the module to present a too conveniently accessible world, or just hand-waving away any difficulties, flies in the face of verisimilitude (there's that word again).

Historic settings produce a quite different challenge to fantasy settings.

1: In my own system I left it really abstract as theres so much variance and granularity doesnt really add a whole lot after a point. Its easier to just give examples of levels of impairment and let the player come up with what they think fits that level. Same with any workarounds. There are so may ways to approach these things.

But I kept this all fairly low on points gained for chargen to curb any thoughts of min/maxing or char-opping. The problems your character is getting far outweigh the points gained.

2: As noted at the start of the thread, setting is everything when dealing with disabilities. Some settings are going to make disabled characters just short of impossible. Or at the very least alot of hassle to make even remotely viable.

One bemusing thing though is that of all things. A blind investigator in a Call of Cthulhu type setting, where seeing horrible things tends to be a really bad idea, is going to be practically immune to any SAN loss that relies only on seeing (or touching) something icky. Unfortunately in CoC. Hearing some horrible things can cause SAN loss to so dont think you are Cthulhuproof. heh-heh.

But a character totally incapable of self movement is going to be really tricky to pull of. Not impossible. Just really tricky without magic. And if it were a totally mundane setting like Gangbusters then its going to indeed be really hard to pull off. But not impossible.

Omega

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« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2020, 01:32:30 AM »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1146503
I bet you a beer it will never come around to "Think of the Adults! Think of the Men! Think of the Straight!" unless it is to further demonize them, which they are already doing IMHO.

It has before. So odds are it will again. They will latch onto any resistance and egg them on until the time is right to re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-re-infest the puritans, the women, the gays, the blacks, the handicapped, etc.

They wiil help you only till its time to demonize you. "Man those handicapped people are unreasoning jerks! Allways demanding representation. Never satisfied with representation. Not allowing anyone to act a role even! Trying to force their ways on normal people! They even want to prevent seeking cures!" Seen it before. (to a lesser extent.) Seeing it again. And unfortunately will likely see it again.

LiferGamer

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« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2020, 01:41:42 AM »
Quote from: Omega;1146499
I know at least two people who prefer being depressed to being on meds. And two who very much do not want to be off the meds. I also know two who are not on meds that really the hell should be. (Being on Suicide Watch is the diametric opposite of fun.)
Im not sure a person suffering depression could ever be really ok with that. But odds are some can adjust. Possibly really well. Something worth researching for me to do now.

I suspect it loops around again to people who are adjusted to their disability/s. And the level of adjustment.


Without going into detail, when I'm on the anti-depressants that 'work' I'm zoned out and fuzzy.  I hate the feeling, and my personality is all 'wrong'; It's not my place to advocate it one way or the other, but I choose to NOT take them.
Your Forgotten Realms was my first The Last Jedi.

If the party is gonna die, they want to be riding and blasting/hacking away at a separate one of Tiamat's heads as she plummets towards earth with broken wings while Solars and Planars sing.