Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
If they both get smites again each other, how can could you tell?

The existence of supernatural powers doesn't automatically answer all metaphysical questions. In fact, it probably raises more than it dispels.

In Fantasy Wargaming the various gods were real. But were mana junkies and needed followers. It also had this disconnect where God sends Jews to Hell. The writers were too busy being condescending to actually write a coherent RPG.

In D&D at least if theres various pantheons present in a setting then usually everyones on the same page. Similar to how Marvel used to write Thor. The various gods were more or less welcoming to like minded or like portfoloio'd gods and incresingly less cordial with those furthest from their general demeanors. They were more than capable of working together in a crisis too. Least some were. They also liked to spar when meeting up to. Especially Thor and Hercules.

So at least in D&D theres some congruency. Of course some settings toss all that out the window and either the different pantheons are really the same gods with different names in different regions. Or its every god for themselves and they each might as well be an individual religion rather than a pantheon.

So setting can have some effect on these spells depending on if the spell is targeting something specific or something vague even.

Greek gods don't blow shit up because we keep honoring them in deviant art. Thank the Renaissance for the postponed apocalypse Christoheathen

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:04:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:55:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Stop being disingenuous, YOU brought Greek gods as an example, which is why I talk about them specifically.

Once more, no, it's not subjective, IF the Christians are correct then the Muslims aren't, IF their monotheistic God exists then one of them must be wrong and therefore Evil.

The Devil wouldn't give his followers the ability to smite the followers of God right?

Remember, YOU brought the Christian vs Muslim thing, not me, and yet you'll proceed on your next post to claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your relativistic PO in the Game World.

Alternate scenario: Their god does exist (it doesn't, but just for the same of argument), both worship the same god, but neither of them is evil, just misguided, and their god is too merciful to condemn either side, but also won't intervene because they must learn to figure it out for themselves. And their smite evil ability could still work regardless if it's power works off their faith rather being directly granted by their god (granted, this depends on the world's cosmology and how magic operates in the world).

Just because gods are literally real in the context of the game world that doesn't mean that everything is binary and it has to be either one extreme or the other. Maybe both sides are right and wrong at the same time for different reasons. It might not make sense to us, but the gods work in mysterious ways, etc.

The gods' involvement with the world also vary from setting to setting, or campaign style. The gods could be real, but remote and mysterious--never interfering directly, only through visions and dreams, etc.

Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2021, 05:37:23 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
If they both get smites again each other, how can could you tell?

The existence of supernatural powers doesn't automatically answer all metaphysical questions. In fact, it probably raises more than it dispels.

In Fantasy Wargaming the various gods were real. But were mana junkies and needed followers. It also had this disconnect where God sends Jews to Hell. The writers were too busy being condescending to actually write a coherent RPG.

In D&D at least if theres various pantheons present in a setting then usually everyones on the same page. Similar to how Marvel used to write Thor. The various gods were more or less welcoming to like minded or like portfoloio'd gods and incresingly less cordial with those furthest from their general demeanors. They were more than capable of working together in a crisis too. Least some were. They also liked to spar when meeting up to. Especially Thor and Hercules.

So at least in D&D theres some congruency. Of course some settings toss all that out the window and either the different pantheons are really the same gods with different names in different regions. Or its every god for themselves and they each might as well be an individual religion rather than a pantheon.

So setting can have some effect on these spells depending on if the spell is targeting something specific or something vague even.

One of the more bizarre aspects of D&D is the way it treats good and evil as universal. That there is good, and there is evil, and it applies whether you're Vishnu or Set or Marduk or Hades, and that somehow all the gods from all these different religions all agree on what defines good and evil.

That only works if you erase the substantive spiritual differences between those different religions, and pretend they're all just Western humanists with different numbers of arms, who wear clothes of different styles, and have different fantastic creatures pulling their chariots. Which erases a lot of the point of having different cultures in the first place.

I think the astral realm version works a lot better, where each religion can have a different definition of good and evil, and the spells granted by their gods or from the religion as a whole give that definition objective (super)reality. A priest of Lugh and Amaterasu can cast the same spell, and get different answers.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 12, 2021, 05:46:25 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:04:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:55:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Stop being disingenuous, YOU brought Greek gods as an example, which is why I talk about them specifically.

Once more, no, it's not subjective, IF the Christians are correct then the Muslims aren't, IF their monotheistic God exists then one of them must be wrong and therefore Evil.

The Devil wouldn't give his followers the ability to smite the followers of God right?

Remember, YOU brought the Christian vs Muslim thing, not me, and yet you'll proceed on your next post to claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your relativistic PO in the Game World.

Alternate scenario: Their god does exist (it doesn't, but just for the same of argument), both worship the same god, but neither of them is evil, just misguided, and their god is too merciful to condemn either side, but also won't intervene because they must learn to figure it out for themselves. And their smite evil ability could still work regardless if it's power works off their faith rather being directly granted by their god (granted, this depends on the world's cosmology and how magic operates in the world).

Just because gods are literally real in the context of the game world that doesn't mean that everything is binary and it has to be either one extreme or the other. Maybe both sides are right and wrong at the same time for different reasons. It might not make sense to us, but the gods work in mysterious ways, etc.

The gods' involvement with the world also vary from setting to setting, or campaign style. The gods could be real, but remote and mysterious--never interfering directly, only through visions and dreams, etc.

Maybe gods are just really into specific things and they don't really sweat the details about how you honor those things. You bake a man's bones into a vase to honor the god of pottery? Who cares about the dude, that is a sweet vase.

Quote from: This Guy on April 12, 2021, 05:47:44 PM

Maybe gods are just really into specific things and they don't really sweat the details about how you honor those things. You bake a man's bones into a vase to honor the god of pottery? Who cares about the dude, that is a sweet vase.

People would start testing the limits of what is an acceptable sacrifice and what is not, and figuring out what parts of which religions are just baggage and what really works, and then you'd have a science of religion.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 05:51:05 PM

Quote from: This Guy on April 12, 2021, 05:47:44 PM

Maybe gods are just really into specific things and they don't really sweat the details about how you honor those things. You bake a man's bones into a vase to honor the god of pottery? Who cares about the dude, that is a sweet vase.

People would start testing the limits of what is an acceptable sacrifice and what is not, and figuring out what parts of which religions are just baggage and what really works, and then you'd have a science of religion.

On the one hand I really prefer metaphorical mysticism same way I prefer magic-as-metaphor and not magic-as-science. On the other hand sounds pretty awesome.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 05:46:32 PMOne of the more bizarre aspects of D&D is the way it treats good and evil as universal. That there is good, and there is evil, and it applies whether you're Vishnu or Set or Marduk or Hades, and that somehow all the gods from all these different religions all agree on what defines good and evil.

I think this problem cropped up in 2e but may have had its seeds in AD&D.
Originally the idea was that the DM selected ONE of the pantheons presented. But by 2e it was every pantheon. But not. But yes. But what the hell?

Example in Forgotten Realms theres other pantheons but not ones from Earth. While in other settings theres one panthron and nothing else. And in Planescape its every pantheon even ones from Earth. And then one writer will get mixed up and drop some Greek gods into Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk or have Selune having a tea party with Paladine. Or some other weirdness.

Spelljammer tossed another wrench in the gears with some gods influence either curbed or non-existent depending on the sphere one was in.

On top of all this now you have in FR gods and then above them the super gods in the form of the primordials and things like aboleths and now hags which apparently predate the gods... and so on.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:51:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

What if I believe in all gods at once? Does that mean they're all real?

Thats what you believe.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 12, 2021, 05:46:25 PM
Alternate scenario: Their god does exist (it doesn't, but just for the same of argument), both worship the same god, but neither of them is evil, just misguided, and their god is too merciful to condemn either side, but also won't intervene because they must learn to figure it out for themselves. And their smite evil ability could still work regardless if it's power works off their faith rather being directly granted by their god (granted, this depends on the world's cosmology and how magic operates in the world).

Just because gods are literally real in the context of the game world that doesn't mean that everything is binary and it has to be either one extreme or the other. Maybe both sides are right and wrong at the same time for different reasons. It might not make sense to us, but the gods work in mysterious ways, etc.

The gods' involvement with the world also vary from setting to setting, or campaign style. The gods could be real, but remote and mysterious--never interfering directly, only through visions and dreams, etc.

It could be like in 4e where who was actually smited resolves at the end of the battle.

Greetings!

I think it is more interesting to design different cultures and different religions that are distinct, and define the world and cosmology as they deem appropriate, without particularly referencing a "Western Model" or a universal moral philosophy. Of course, when it comes to morality, there are many aspects that are common, and are relatively universal. That doesn't mean, however, that individual cultures cannot embrace different customs or interpret things in a different manner or context.

For example, in my campaign, I have a barbarian human tribal culture that is Germanic-themed. Their moral codes for society are often harsh, strict, and violent--but they aren't that different from the moral codes embraced by many civilized, urban cultures. This particular northern barbarian culture embraces human sacrifice, however. Every season, they sacrifice a group of slaves to their gods, typically a few dozen, sometimes a few hundred. Beyond that, once per year, they have a ceremony where several hundred slaves or war prisoners are sacrificed to the gods of winter and the forest, to placate the spirits need for blood and their own people's atonement for failures in worship and faith throughout the year. A kind of ritualistic representation of cleansing the old year, and preparing for a new year of faith and devotion to the tribe's gods and the spirits of the land. This barbarian tribe also practices slavery on a small household and farming scale--individuals, usually children or adolescents captured in raids are brought back to the tribe where they serve as slaves, typically to an individual that buys them, or a family that buys them. Enemy warriors captured in war are also enslaved--some are kept imprisoned to be sacrificed later on throughout the year, while most are packed off and sold for handsome profits to slave merchants from more civilized, urban cultures. The profits gained from such slave markets are of course used to enrich the tribal chieftain and nobles, but some of it is also used to spread around as gifts and donations that honor and benefit the whole community.

That northern barbarian tribe are just fine with their gods, their morality, and their ancient tribal customs. Their primary priorities are honoring their own gods, and ensuring the prosperity and glory of their people, of their race and tribe.

They don't give a damn about what foreigners believe or approve of, or don't approve of.

Different cultures and religions should be their own thing, and proud of their ancient ways. There is no need to all jump into a blender and become universalist, happy rainbow jello.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 06:36:20 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:51:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

What if I believe in all gods at once? Does that mean they're all real?

Thats what you believe.

I roll to disbelieve.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 07:13:26 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 06:36:20 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:51:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

What if I believe in all gods at once? Does that mean they're all real?

Thats what you believe.

I roll to disbelieve.

Players are not allowed to make their own roll to disbelieve.  That would be meta gaming which is strictly verboten.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:46:39 PM

And if you do have Evil then anyone that's Evil is a threat, either right now or in the future.

So you have God or gods and Demons, Evil beings worship Demons.

I agree with you that you need Evil to be able to morally kill Evil orcs and goblins with impunity. However, it is possible to have Evil, and have some creatures be always (fixedly) Evil, without insisting that every creature that is currently Evil is irredeemable.

In Catholic theology, for instance, Satan and his Demons are fixedly Evil, and the Angels are fixedly Good. Whereas a human being might currently be Evil (in the service of Satan, say) but still redeemable in the future.

In an RPG, you can have add orcs and goblins to the list of fixedly Evil creatures, but still have humans capable of free will. An Evil human might later become Good through redemptive sacrifice, grace of God, etc., but an Evil orc will never become Good.

Layered on top of that, you can also have subjective or culturally-relative good or evil. And it may be possible that Good and Evil don't concern themselves with small-scale matters which creates grey area for cultures to fight over.

In ACKS, Detect Evil detects innately Evil creatures (demons, undead, etc) plus currently Evil creatures with active ill intent towards you.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 05:46:32 PM

Quote from: Omega on April 12, 2021, 05:37:23 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
If they both get smites again each other, how can could you tell?

The existence of supernatural powers doesn't automatically answer all metaphysical questions. In fact, it probably raises more than it dispels.

In Fantasy Wargaming the various gods were real. But were mana junkies and needed followers. It also had this disconnect where God sends Jews to Hell. The writers were too busy being condescending to actually write a coherent RPG.

In D&D at least if theres various pantheons present in a setting then usually everyones on the same page. Similar to how Marvel used to write Thor. The various gods were more or less welcoming to like minded or like portfoloio'd gods and incresingly less cordial with those furthest from their general demeanors. They were more than capable of working together in a crisis too. Least some were. They also liked to spar when meeting up to. Especially Thor and Hercules.

So at least in D&D theres some congruency. Of course some settings toss all that out the window and either the different pantheons are really the same gods with different names in different regions. Or its every god for themselves and they each might as well be an individual religion rather than a pantheon.

So setting can have some effect on these spells depending on if the spell is targeting something specific or something vague even.

One of the more bizarre aspects of D&D is the way it treats good and evil as universal. That there is good, and there is evil, and it applies whether you're Vishnu or Set or Marduk or Hades, and that somehow all the gods from all these different religions all agree on what defines good and evil.

That only works if you erase the substantive spiritual differences between those different religions, and pretend they're all just Western humanists with different numbers of arms, who wear clothes of different styles, and have different fantastic creatures pulling their chariots. Which erases a lot of the point of having different cultures in the first place.

I think the astral realm version works a lot better, where each religion can have a different definition of good and evil, and the spells granted by their gods or from the religion as a whole give that definition objective (super)reality. A priest of Lugh and Amaterasu can cast the same spell, and get different answers.

Considering the game was written by western humanists, for gamers in the 20th/21st century, I'm pretty OK with that. If a DM wants to go more in depth about a different morality and spirituality for their campaign's gods, more power to 'em. I think for day to day gaming, most players just want their divine spells granted and a god's name to write down on the religon field of their character sheet.