Quote from: estar on April 12, 2021, 03:25:29 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
I do like your way of handling the spell by the way.

Thanks!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
I agree, but, if you don't have Evil in your world, then killing on sight Goblins, Orcs, etc can't be called moral.

So the way I handle things in my Majestic Wilderlands/Majestic Fantasy Realms is that Demons are EVIL. They are corrupted beings who have spiritually damaged their souls and are now incapable of good.

If it not supernatural and is sentient it has free will.

But there is a big but. In my mythology the myriad races other than Human and Elves were all created by the Demons by twisting humans into various forms (Dwarves, Orcs) and hybrids (Centaurs, Lizardmen). They all free will but many of these races have physiological issues that make living with other races problematic. Introduced by the Demons in their quest for the perfect servitor race when they briefly ruled creation at the beginning of time.

Orcs
The issue with Orcs is that their aggression range has been shifted radically over the the aggression end of the scale. In addition they between tweaked to respond to strong leaders. Establish dominance over an orc then their aggression will subside. This aspect of orc psychology has cause the race to live apart from other cultures. 

Goblins
The goblins were altered by the demon to be more focused. Once a goblin adopts a task or idea it become their obsession for years or decades.  Unlike Orcs there are goblins part of various other culture and some goblins civilizations as well. Many tribal goblins become fixated on survival above all else. Those goblins are hard to reason with and often it just not possible and hence conflict arises.

The Gods
My campaign is set during a time where there competing religions espousing different philosophies of life. Some can co-exist, others are viewed as unpleasant by most cultures. The gods view themselves as teachers first and foremost operating through faith and religion. For priests and other keeping their faith, the gods permit themselves to lend supernatural aid.  God all oppose the demons but some their teachings conflict. A well known example is Mitra (honor and justice) and Set (order and war). Other gods were impacted by the conflict with the demons and have adopted extreme philosophies that they now teach.

Morality
Overall morality works like it does in life. Everyone sentient being has the capacity to choose good and evil. However nobody is an island and grow affected by their physiology, their culture, their religion, and their philosophies. From this like in our history conflict arise both good and evil acts are done.

But demons and everything they touch is EVIL. They will lie and deceive to delude others that they are just misunderstood. But in end a demon is spiritually damaged to the point where everything they do ultimately for their own selfish ends even if the payoff is years or decades down the road. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:46:39 PM
And if you do have Evil then anyone that's Evil is a threat, either right now or in the future.

So you have God or gods and Demons, Evil beings worship Demons.

So what happen was that I was the guy who let people "trash" his setting back in the day. Want to be king, "OK". But you had to work for whatever it is you wanted to do as your player. I wasn't going to hand it over on a nicely wrapped box. To make this interesting I learned how to paint a picture of regions with various nuances in folk's motivations and goals. Being well-read helped as well as played a lot of historical wargames.

Within a few years of starting this (I ran my first campaign this in 1980), I jettisoned alignment. Too simplistic for what I was doing. But I still wanted something that was clearly EVIL. So the triad of Devil, Daemons, and Demons became it when I still used AD&D 1e. Later when I switched to Fantasy Hero and then GURPS. I pared down the huge rogues gallery of D&D into a more managable number of groups. That when demons became the EVIL.

Yet GURPS and other RPGs I played still had stuff similar to Detect Evil. So through various campaigns I settled on hostile intent with the demons the embodiment of true evil. So when I returned to using OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry. I was pleasantly surprised to see that how Detect Evil was originally used. And I still don't use alignments.

Overall there are elements of my campaign and character creation that are considered to be "good" by my players and some that are not. The main difference is a quality I called "pleasantness" Players rather deal with or be a cleric of Dannu the goddess of healing than deal with or be a cleric of Set. The same with different regions of my campaign world. Players gravitate to the ones they consider more "pleasant".

But this is only a board trend and it varied from group to group.

Wrapping it up
I have a cosmology and mythology that works nice for me. Doesn't mean it the only way to approach this. In general my recommendations are

• Define a source of true supernatural evil.
• Give a plausible reason why a race or culture can't co-exist.
• For everything else if it hostile then it a problem and magic can and should reveal that hostility. I say should because that one of the things players expect out of a magic system.

Hope this helps.

Can't say I disagree with how you run your games, and like I already said I do like how you handle some of it. Not that I'm going to throw away evil races as a whole and switch to your way forever, but I think I might like to try your style.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

What if I believe in all gods at once? Does that mean they're all real?

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:42:17 PM
Greek gods weren't real tho. IF...

Probably...

So which gods are real, and which aren't?

Feel free to just stick to major modern religions.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 02:42:17 PM
Your game about Christians vs Muslims... You do understand that only one of those religions can be true right? So, if in your game God is real, then it follows one of those IS evil.

Your argument is invalid.

If they both get smites again each other, how can could you tell?

The existence of supernatural powers doesn't automatically answer all metaphysical questions. In fact, it probably raises more than it dispels.

Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:51:07 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on April 12, 2021, 04:50:11 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

All Gods are not real except for your God I mean.

What if I believe in all gods at once? Does that mean they're all real?

But we're not talking about belief, in the real world you have faith, in the game world you don't because you interact with the God/Gods and see their works.

You might say someone thinks they are aliens posturing as Gods, (Aliens in a pseudo medieval world...) but you can't say that someone believes they arent real, as in they do not exist and are only the product of your imagination+faith.

Stop mixing real world stuff with the game world.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:55:07 PM
Stop mixing real world stuff with the game world.

That's exactly what you're doing. You can't separate your own personal beliefs from the game.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:55:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Stop being disingenuous, YOU brought Greek gods as an example, which is why I talk about them specifically.

Once more, no, it's not subjective, IF the Christians are correct then the Muslims aren't, IF their monotheistic God exists then one of them must be wrong and therefore Evil.

The Devil wouldn't give his followers the ability to smite the followers of God right?

Remember, YOU brought the Christian vs Muslim thing, not me, and yet you'll proceed on your next post to claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your relativistic PO in the Game World.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:56:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:55:07 PM
Stop mixing real world stuff with the game world.

That's exactly what you're doing. You can't separate your own personal beliefs from the game.

Wrongo bongo

You brought the Greek gods as an example, when I argue against YOUR example you retreat to your bailey and ask about other gods.

YOU brought the Christians vs Muslims as an example (in a game), when I argue against YOUR example you claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your insertion of YOUR moral relativism in the game world.

I wonder if you're being intentionally disingenuous or you can't see what you're doing.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:04:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:55:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Stop being disingenuous, YOU brought Greek gods as an example, which is why I talk about them specifically.

Once more, no, it's not subjective, IF the Christians are correct then the Muslims aren't, IF their monotheistic God exists then one of them must be wrong and therefore Evil.

The Devil wouldn't give his followers the ability to smite the followers of God right?

Remember, YOU brought the Christian vs Muslim thing, not me, and yet you'll proceed on your next post to claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your relativistic PO in the Game World.

You still haven't answered the question. And I'm being disingenuous?

And you're still entirely missing the point. You're talking about absolute truths. That's not the same thing as objective. You can have objective good and evil in a world, and still deny they're really really good and evil, in the broader sense of those words (morally and metaphysically, as opposed to the it burns it burns physical reactions or evildar pings). In fact, you have have multiple versions of objective good and evil in a world. That's what allows competing belief systems in a world where good and evil have objective reality.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:07:24 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:56:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:55:07 PM
Stop mixing real world stuff with the game world.

That's exactly what you're doing. You can't separate your own personal beliefs from the game.

Wrongo bongo

You brought the Greek gods as an example, when I argue against YOUR example you retreat to your bailey and ask about other gods.

YOU brought the Christians vs Muslims as an example (in a game), when I argue against YOUR example you claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your insertion of YOUR moral relativism in the game world.

I wonder if you're being intentionally disingenuous or you can't see what you're doing.

No, you just claimed they were fictional. Without explaining why or how you came to that conclusion, or how the reasoning that dismisses a set of gods that were once accepted by millions of people doesn't also apply to every other god or belief system that's ever been created. That's why I questioned you about them.

Again, your last statement is a perfect description of my reaction to your posts.

Quote from: estar on April 12, 2021, 01:25:34 PM
However that may be, the description of the spell in OD&D makes it relative to the caster. In later editions people did not focus on that which makes Detect Evil and elaborate "danger sense" for a couple of minutes. Instead they focused on the name of the spells and took it way too literally.

See my notes above on each iterations idea of this spell.
Of them only a few actually detect evil/good.
O is intent.
BX is intent
AD&D is alignment not the casters.
2e is intent
3e is alignment with chance of being shocked by hither level creatures.
nothing for 4e
5e is the most misnamed spell ever as this "detect" instead detects non prime material creatures. Alignment has nothing to do with it or even intent.

So 3 go off intent. 2 off alignment in some way, and one hies off and detects other planars.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 05:11:12 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:04:22 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:55:43 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
Greek gods weren't, aren't and will never be real. As in something that exists beyond the imagination of their creators/worshippers.

Just Greek gods? How about Norse gods? Hindu? Hebrew? Don't tell me you don't believe in Bob?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:51:47 PM
As for Christians vs Muslims, both are monotheistic, both claim the same God, both can't be true, ergo one must be Evil in a world where God IS real.

In that same world any other religion should be Evil, by definition.

But if their worshipers can smite each other, then once again the deeper question of which is reeeeaaaaalllly good and which is reeeeaaaaalllly evil remains subjective, even though at least two objective definitions of good and evil exist in the world.

Stop being disingenuous, YOU brought Greek gods as an example, which is why I talk about them specifically.

Once more, no, it's not subjective, IF the Christians are correct then the Muslims aren't, IF their monotheistic God exists then one of them must be wrong and therefore Evil.

The Devil wouldn't give his followers the ability to smite the followers of God right?

Remember, YOU brought the Christian vs Muslim thing, not me, and yet you'll proceed on your next post to claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your relativistic PO in the Game World.

You still haven't answered the question. And I'm being disingenuous?

And you're still entirely missing the point. You're talking about absolute truths. That's not the same thing as objective. You can have objective good and evil in a world, and still deny they're really really good and evil, in the broader sense of those words (morally and metaphysically, as opposed to the it burns it burns physical reactions or evildar pings). In fact, you have have multiple versions of objective good and evil in a world. That's what allows competing belief systems in a world where good and evil have objective reality.

But I have answered the question, it's not my fault you lack reading comprehension.

Belief/Faith doesn't make the stuff you believe real. You might believe Earth is Flat, millions once did and maybe millions still do, it doesn't make Earth flat.

Once again, in YOUR example of a game about Christians vs Muslims where their monotheistic God (both claim the same God) IS real one of them has to be wrong, and if both have the supernatural ability to smite the other it follows that one gets it from God and the other from the Devil.

So, one of them is Good and the other is Evil.

There's no relativism, because if their God IS real it follows that the Devil IS real too, therefore one of them is worshipping the Devil and getting their supernatural abilities from it.

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 05:12:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:07:24 PM

Quote from: Pat on April 12, 2021, 04:56:35 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 04:55:07 PM
Stop mixing real world stuff with the game world.

That's exactly what you're doing. You can't separate your own personal beliefs from the game.

Wrongo bongo

You brought the Greek gods as an example, when I argue against YOUR example you retreat to your bailey and ask about other gods.

YOU brought the Christians vs Muslims as an example (in a game), when I argue against YOUR example you claim it's MY beliefs that prevent me from agreing with your insertion of YOUR moral relativism in the game world.

I wonder if you're being intentionally disingenuous or you can't see what you're doing.

No, you just claimed they were fictional. Without explaining why or how you came to that conclusion, or how the reasoning that dismisses a set of gods that were once accepted by millions of people doesn't also apply to every other god or belief system that's ever been created. That's why I questioned you about them.

Again, your last statement is a perfect description of my reaction to your posts.

Yep, because they ARE fictional, I don't need to justify a conclusion almost all the world accepts as correct and has for several hundreds of years, I guess if they were real they would have smitten the unbelievers a long time ago for not worshipṕing them and we would see Minotaurs and other shit.

I never claimed the reasoning for the Greek Gods doesn't also apply to jack shit, that's YOU trying to put words in my mouth.

And by trying to put words in my mouth you answered my question about if you know that you're being disingenuous. End of conversation, I don't enjoy arguing with disingenuous pricks.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 12, 2021, 05:27:49 PM

And by trying to put words in my mouth you answered my question about if you know that you're being disingenuous. End of conversation, I don't enjoy arguing with disingenuous pricks.

No, you didn't answer the question. That's a lie.

And no, I didn't put any words in your mouth. I asked questions. Which is an invitation for you to explain your position. That's the complete opposite of putting words your mouth.

I engaged with you fairly, trying to address the issues you raised. You're the one who's resorted to attacking me, calling me names, and acting like a general asshole.

Guess what? That makes you the disingenuous prick.