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Author Topic: Detect Evil  (Read 6138 times)

Ratman_tf

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2021, 07:07:37 PM »
I just looked through the copies of D&D that I have on hand, and none of them describe Detect Evil as detecting evil alignment. Only one of the games even has Evil as an alignment (Blueholme).

Old School Essentials:
"Objects enchanted for evil purposes or living beings with evil intentions are caused to magically glow."

Blueholme Journeymanne Rules:
"The caster can sense the presence of evil objects, as well as evil intentions or thoughts of any creature within range of the spell. The spell also gives some idea of the degree of evil, and possibly whether the source is lawful or chaotic."

ODND:
"A spell to detect evil thought or intent in any creature or evilly enchanted object. Note that poison, for example, is neither good nor evil. Duration: 2 turns. Range: 6”."


Does noone read spell descriptions anymore? Or is everyone playing different games than myself? All this hand-wringing over such a straightforward spell that actually has very little to do with alignment is silly.



I used a shorthand of "Detect Evil" to cover all of the divination abilities that determine such things as alignment. Including Know Alignment, which was an AD&D spell, and introduced the concept of being able to determine someone's alignment to the game. My most recent experience with that type of ability was the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil from Pathfinder 1e.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil



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VisionStorm

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2021, 07:58:58 PM »
All these philosophical points about objective morality are ultimately pointless because even if we grant that such a thing exists (either literally in the real world or hypothetically in a fantasy) the reality still remains that we as humans are incapable of understanding or agreeing upon WTF “objective” morality really is, so there can be no practical way to implement it in terms of the game. You can claim “objective morality DOES exist in this fantasy world, because ‘fantasy’—CHECKMATE!” all you want, but that still doesn’t give us an adequate guideline we can consistently use to effectively define WTF “evil” is without risking disagreements at the game table or running into inconsistencies caused by our own human limitations. So the notion that objective morality can hypothetically exist in a fantasy world is pointless. We still don’t have the tools to properly assess it.

Considering there are numerous real world philosophies that do make decent of arguable claims as to be able to define and assess objective morality it is rather strange to assert that a fantasy world where the author (or GM) has perfect cosmological control can not simulate this.

You can give a flat disagreement about something but it doesn't make the opinion valid. This is as true for scientific fact as it is for logic, as it is for philosophy, as it is for morality.

Also to consider that as for the spell Detect Evil the morality of Good or Evil isn't really necessary. Only how the creator of the spell defined Evil. Equally Evil alignment doesn't equal dangerous or even illegal. The mercenary captain that guards the town maybe Lawful Evil etc.

Considering that there are numerous real world philosophies that make decent claims to the contrary and there is still no consensus on such matters despite millennia of debate on the topic, that the objective of an RPG is to play a game, not to break down into protracted philosophical discussions about the nature of good and evil, and that an author with complete and total control over their story is in no way analogous to a GM who needs to share their world with their players as part of a shared group activity with random elements like dice or cards affecting the outcome of things, where they can't ever have 100% the same amount of control an actual author has (no matter how superficially similar those two might seem to be), that leads me back to my original point. We don’t have the tools to properly assess WTF "objective" good and evil is. We don't even have an agreement about WTF "objective" morality even entails, even at an academic level, where the subject has been rehashed to death since time immemorial and is still debated to this day. Yet SOMEHOW we're supposed to portray it in a satisfactory way in a game as part of a shared group activity with plenty of people who might disagree about any of these subjects even mean?

Consider the conclusion to you post. Here you're claiming that the outcome of a Detect Evil spell is ultimately defined by the creator(caster?), which is an inherently subjective notion, and goes against the idea of objective morality. If objective morality is a thing and we can properly assess it in gameplay, then WTF does how a caster define evil matter? If objective morality is real, then the caster's personal definition of "evil" is irrelevant, you just have to fall back on that one true "objective" definition of morality. But we can't, because we don't have one. We haven't found one that isn't still academically debated to this day.

There are people who think the world is flat. Not every opinion is valid. The fact there is debate academic or otherwise is irrelevant. Academics haven't worked out what a man or a woman is yet while the rest of the world moves on.

To the gaming point if a GM says in the game world then something is objectively evil then it is. A player can choose to play a character who doesn't believe that or can leave the game but it doesn't detract from the "reality" of the game world. At a certain point if all the consequences for being good or evil manifest up to and including literal divine judgement then discussions about "but was that really evil?" just become intellectual masturbation.

The second point about the intention of the creator of the spell (as in the original sorcerer who developed it) was a separate point about how to use the spell practically. It wasn't related to the A-level philosophy debate.

There are people who think that they know the objective definition of morality. That doesn't mean that their definition is correct or sidestep the fact that there's no consensus on the subject, even to the point where I've yet to see a single person here arguing in favor of objective morality (fictional or otherwise) provide a clear example of it that can consistently be implemented during play other than "alignment is really about factions within the game world".

A GM may rule that whatever they say IS in fact "objective evil" (at least within the context of their world), but that doesn't change the fact that we're ultimately still going by the GM's whims on whatever they think qualifies as "evil" that day, which isn't a workable standard that players can effectively fall back on, since they can't know what the GM's whims are until after the fact, after they've already stepped on one of these morality landmines. And saying that the players can just up and leave if they don't like it doesn't tell me how to properly implement these "objective standards" during play. It just tells me that we can just push them and let the campaign fall apart if players don't like it. Which I can easily sidestep by simply not treating morality as some objective measure I have to waste time pushing onto players or trying to judge during play, and seems to me a more effective way to handle the game than pretending that we as humans can effectively declare what is or isn't objectively moral.

The point about the spell only highlights my point. If we have to come up with work arounds to implement these spells in practical terms during play, then clearly declaring objective morality to be real, even if only within the context of the game world, doesn't really solve anything. Since it provides no practical solutions to how to handle things during play other than "the GM's way or the highway". We still need some sort of guideline of how to use these spells in a practical sense during play, and declaring morality to be objective doesn't seem to be it. It's always some other proxy, such as "the spells work only vs supernatural good/evil", or "based on the caster's intent", or "alignment is just an in-game faction".

A GMs "whims" assumes it would be arbitary and capricious and that the PCs couldn't ask what is Good or Evil in this context and get an answer. 

The fact the Player may disagree with the answer is irrelevant because the world is fictional. Hell the GM may not in RL agree with what is objectively Good in the fictional cosmology he just created but he can still give an answer.

This assumes that every GM has a specialized, highly detailed definition of what is "Good" or "Evil" work out for their campaign, as opposed to just operating under their own understanding of what good and evil is, which is closer my own experience of how those things usually go down. One GM may come from more morally complex expectations in their game (were good guys never kill prisoners, for example), while the player may come with a more simplified black & white "kill all bad guys" view typical of video games, or vice versa (sometimes I've been the morally complex player in a munchkin campaign where paladins can execute prisoners). Then the player says their character kills the prisoners and the GM reacts to that based on the idea that the PC just committed an evil act and the whole interaction goes from there, rather than warning the player or either of them realizing that they're both operating under different assumptions of what counts as "Good" or "Evil", or the possible impact of evil actions in the game.

Also, the fact that the world is fictional is irrelevant to my point, because I'm talking about playability, not about what can or can't hypothetically exist within the context of a fictional world. My question is how do we handle these moral issues in gameplay, and is it even necessary or desirable, specially from a rules-based perspective (RP about deeper moral or philosophical issues between characters is a different issue)?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 08:00:32 PM by VisionStorm »

HappyDaze

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2021, 08:22:36 PM »
Also, the fact that the world is fictional is irrelevant to my point, because I'm talking about playability, not about what can or can't hypothetically exist within the context of a fictional world. My question is how do we handle these moral issues in gameplay, and is it even necessary or desirable, specially from a rules-based perspective (RP about deeper moral or philosophical issues between characters is a different issue)?
I've played in 4-color superhero settings that have hard-locked good/evil lines where trying to use deeper thought is out of genre. A fantasy setting can do the same.

Omega

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2021, 04:46:50 PM »
I used a shorthand of "Detect Evil" to cover all of the divination abilities that determine such things as alignment. Including Know Alignment, which was an AD&D spell, and introduced the concept of being able to determine someone's alignment to the game. My most recent experience with that type of ability was the Paladin's ability to Detect Evil from Pathfinder 1e.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/detect-evil

Stepping outside bog standard Detect Evil then lets see,
OD&D has nothing else.
BX has Know Alignment which reveals the alignment of any one creature or item. Law, Neutral or Chaos.
AD&D has Know Alignment which shows the alignment of up to 10. It can be reversed to prevent alignment detection.
Psionic Detect Evil/Good had a chance to reveal the exact alignment. Otherwise it just had a chance to read the good/evil part of alignment.
Psionic Empathy could pick up the current emotional state.
Psionic Aura Alteration allowed to change what detection powers read on the user.
2e likely has much the same in the Psionics book which I do not have on hand at the moment.


GeekyBugle

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2021, 11:57:19 AM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.

Is it thought crime tho? I guess it depends on what the PCs do after the spell is used, take for instance an evil character that is so inept their evil schemes always end up doing good. Do you punish him because his intent was evil? Then it is thought crime.

Now take a different character, it has evil thoughts, but you don't know if he has acted on them. Do you punish him? Then it is thought crime.

An easy fix is to change the way the spell works, it only detects those who have done evil things or evilly enchanted objects. Then the PCs can't punish the innocent.

But does this "fix" give your characters better moral dillemas? IMHO, no, it doesn't. It removes the moral dilema, if that's what you want then more power to you.

IMHO the spell is perfect as it is, it creates oportunities for the PCs to do evil things (Punish creatures for thought crime), thus acting (probably) against their alignment.

If I were to fix it, I would add the option to choose to detect intent or taint, defining taint as the spiritual mark evil actions leave on you. So you cast and have to choose at casting time between one or the other.

Or, add detect alignment, this one detects the taint, while detect evil detects thoughts/intentions.
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estar

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2021, 12:43:34 PM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.
Relative to the caster.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2021, 01:03:49 PM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.
Relative to the caster.

Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
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estar

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2021, 01:25:34 PM »
Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
However that may be, the description of the spell in OD&D makes it relative to the caster. In later editions people did not focus on that which makes Detect Evil and elaborate "danger sense" for a couple of minutes. Instead they focused on the name of the spells and took it way too literally.

As this thread demonstrates try to tie the spell to some sense of morality is a subjective fool's errand forcing the referee to consider various existential questions just to make a ruling.

My recommendation is not to go down that route. Instead focus on it ability to discover hostile intent towards the caster and magical danger to the caster. A much easier and more straight forward criteria to adjudicate with.

If you want to have "evil" in the classical sense still involved with the spell then pick a supernatural evil like devils or demons. Keep the "danger sense" aspect, but also have it reliably detect any diabolic or demonic threat or items that has a diabolic or demonic taint.

I been handling Detect Evil this way successfully without using alignment for decades and with classic D&D without alignments for the past 10 years.

ScytheSong

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2021, 01:31:56 PM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.
Relative to the caster.

Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.

Yeah. That's why my Divine Caster Detect Evil was a "my god wants this smote" detector. An example would be if there was an Humakt expy (God of Truth and Death, to whom undead are anathema), Detect Evil by Humakti Priest will ping when undead are near, but ignore an assassin.

I think this was clarified in-game when a Paladin of Pelor was alarmed that I didn't have a Goblin tribe (who were definitely Evil in alignment, but concentrating more on survival in the wilderness than rampaging against Human lands) ping the Detect Evil they had up.

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2021, 02:28:42 PM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.
Relative to the caster.

Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
No, there still is. Look at the Greek myths, for instance. Their gods were patrons to sucked up to or feared, not some absolute standard of morality. If the gods are just folks with tons of power, or alien beings, or anything other than abstract ideals in a modern highly moralistic religion, then it's more about power than morality.

More than that, if you have multiple religions in the game, they're probably going to have conflicting definitions of good and evil. It's perfectly possible to run a game where Christian paladins are battling Muslim paladins in the holy land, and both are smiting the fuck out each other.

GeekyBugle

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2021, 02:42:17 PM »
After reading and thinking about it...

    Spell Level 1 (cleric) or 2 (magic-user)

Detects evil thought, intent, or an evilly enchanted objects.
Relative to the caster.

Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
No, there still is. Look at the Greek myths, for instance. Their gods were patrons to sucked up to or feared, not some absolute standard of morality. If the gods are just folks with tons of power, or alien beings, or anything other than abstract ideals in a modern highly moralistic religion, then it's more about power than morality.

More than that, if you have multiple religions in the game, they're probably going to have conflicting definitions of good and evil. It's perfectly possible to run a game where Christian paladins are battling Muslim paladins in the holy land, and both are smiting the fuck out each other.

Greek gods weren't real tho. IF...

Probably...

Your game about Christians vs Muslims... You do understand that only one of those religions can be true right? So, if in your game God is real, then it follows one of those IS evil.

Your argument is invalid.
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GeekyBugle

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2021, 02:46:39 PM »
Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
However that may be, the description of the spell in OD&D makes it relative to the caster. In later editions people did not focus on that which makes Detect Evil and elaborate "danger sense" for a couple of minutes. Instead they focused on the name of the spells and took it way too literally.

As this thread demonstrates try to tie the spell to some sense of morality is a subjective fool's errand forcing the referee to consider various existential questions just to make a ruling.

My recommendation is not to go down that route. Instead focus on it ability to discover hostile intent towards the caster and magical danger to the caster. A much easier and more straight forward criteria to adjudicate with.

If you want to have "evil" in the classical sense still involved with the spell then pick a supernatural evil like devils or demons. Keep the "danger sense" aspect, but also have it reliably detect any diabolic or demonic threat or items that has a diabolic or demonic taint.

I been handling Detect Evil this way successfully without using alignment for decades and with classic D&D without alignments for the past 10 years.

I agree, but, if you don't have Evil in your world, then killing on sight Goblins, Orcs, etc can't be called moral.

And if you do have Evil then anyone that's Evil is a threat, either right now or in the future.

So you have God or gods and Demons, Evil beings worship Demons.

I do like your way of handling the spell by the way.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell

SHARK

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2021, 03:11:35 PM »
Except in a world where the gods are real and do interact with the mortals there's no relative morality.
However that may be, the description of the spell in OD&D makes it relative to the caster. In later editions people did not focus on that which makes Detect Evil and elaborate "danger sense" for a couple of minutes. Instead they focused on the name of the spells and took it way too literally.

As this thread demonstrates try to tie the spell to some sense of morality is a subjective fool's errand forcing the referee to consider various existential questions just to make a ruling.

My recommendation is not to go down that route. Instead focus on it ability to discover hostile intent towards the caster and magical danger to the caster. A much easier and more straight forward criteria to adjudicate with.

If you want to have "evil" in the classical sense still involved with the spell then pick a supernatural evil like devils or demons. Keep the "danger sense" aspect, but also have it reliably detect any diabolic or demonic threat or items that has a diabolic or demonic taint.

I been handling Detect Evil this way successfully without using alignment for decades and with classic D&D without alignments for the past 10 years.

I agree, but, if you don't have Evil in your world, then killing on sight Goblins, Orcs, etc can't be called moral.

And if you do have Evil then anyone that's Evil is a threat, either right now or in the future.

So you have God or gods and Demons, Evil beings worship Demons.

I do like your way of handling the spell by the way.

Greetings!

In my campaigns, I don't have Player characters going up to the drive-thru and having a chat with the gods.

The relationships of the gods to their mortal worshippers and to all of reality is intentionally left vague, with various elements or events open to interpretation.

Essentially, there is the Spirit World, of whatever dimensions. What goes on therein, the various details, are entirely separate from whatever the Player characters know, or think they know.

This way I, as the DM, I don't get into circular theological and moral arguments with the *Players*. I let their *Characters* argue plenty amongst themselves or with NPC's. They make all kinds of arguments and counter-arguments.

Kill them all. Let God sort them out! ;D

Semper Fidelis,

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estar

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2021, 03:25:29 PM »
I do like your way of handling the spell by the way.

Thanks!

I agree, but, if you don't have Evil in your world, then killing on sight Goblins, Orcs, etc can't be called moral.
So the way I handle things in my Majestic Wilderlands/Majestic Fantasy Realms is that Demons are EVIL. They are corrupted beings who have spiritually damaged their souls and are now incapable of good.

If it not supernatural and is sentient it has free will.

But there is a big but. In my mythology the myriad races other than Human and Elves were all created by the Demons by twisting humans into various forms (Dwarves, Orcs) and hybrids (Centaurs, Lizardmen). They all free will but many of these races have physiological issues that make living with other races problematic. Introduced by the Demons in their quest for the perfect servitor race when they briefly ruled creation at the beginning of time.

Orcs
The issue with Orcs is that their aggression range has been shifted radically over the the aggression end of the scale. In addition they between tweaked to respond to strong leaders. Establish dominance over an orc then their aggression will subside. This aspect of orc psychology has cause the race to live apart from other cultures. 

Goblins
The goblins were altered by the demon to be more focused. Once a goblin adopts a task or idea it become their obsession for years or decades.  Unlike Orcs there are goblins part of various other culture and some goblins civilizations as well. Many tribal goblins become fixated on survival above all else. Those goblins are hard to reason with and often it just not possible and hence conflict arises.

The Gods
My campaign is set during a time where there competing religions espousing different philosophies of life. Some can co-exist, others are viewed as unpleasant by most cultures. The gods view themselves as teachers first and foremost operating through faith and religion. For priests and other keeping their faith, the gods permit themselves to lend supernatural aid.  God all oppose the demons but some their teachings conflict. A well known example is Mitra (honor and justice) and Set (order and war). Other gods were impacted by the conflict with the demons and have adopted extreme philosophies that they now teach.

Morality
Overall morality works like it does in life. Everyone sentient being has the capacity to choose good and evil. However nobody is an island and grow affected by their physiology, their culture, their religion, and their philosophies. From this like in our history conflict arise both good and evil acts are done.

But demons and everything they touch is EVIL. They will lie and deceive to delude others that they are just misunderstood. But in end a demon is spiritually damaged to the point where everything they do ultimately for their own selfish ends even if the payoff is years or decades down the road. 


And if you do have Evil then anyone that's Evil is a threat, either right now or in the future.

So you have God or gods and Demons, Evil beings worship Demons.
So what happen was that I was the guy who let people "trash" his setting back in the day. Want to be king, "OK". But you had to work for whatever it is you wanted to do as your player. I wasn't going to hand it over on a nicely wrapped box. To make this interesting I learned how to paint a picture of regions with various nuances in folk's motivations and goals. Being well-read helped as well as played a lot of historical wargames.

Within a few years of starting this (I ran my first campaign this in 1980), I jettisoned alignment. Too simplistic for what I was doing. But I still wanted something that was clearly EVIL. So the triad of Devil, Daemons, and Demons became it when I still used AD&D 1e. Later when I switched to Fantasy Hero and then GURPS. I pared down the huge rogues gallery of D&D into a more managable number of groups. That when demons became the EVIL.

Yet GURPS and other RPGs I played still had stuff similar to Detect Evil. So through various campaigns I settled on hostile intent with the demons the embodiment of true evil. So when I returned to using OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry. I was pleasantly surprised to see that how Detect Evil was originally used. And I still don't use alignments.

Overall there are elements of my campaign and character creation that are considered to be "good" by my players and some that are not. The main difference is a quality I called "pleasantness" Players rather deal with or be a cleric of Dannu the goddess of healing than deal with or be a cleric of Set. The same with different regions of my campaign world. Players gravitate to the ones they consider more "pleasant".

But this is only a board trend and it varied from group to group.

Wrapping it up
I have a cosmology and mythology that works nice for me. Doesn't mean it the only way to approach this. In general my recommendations are

  • Define a source of true supernatural evil.
  • Give a plausible reason why a race or culture can't co-exist.
  • For everything else if it hostile then it a problem and magic can and should reveal that hostility. I say should because that one of the things players expect out of a magic system.

Hope this helps.

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #89 on: April 12, 2021, 04:24:51 PM »
Greek gods weren't real tho. IF...

Probably...
So which gods are real, and which aren't?

Feel free to just stick to major modern religions.

Your game about Christians vs Muslims... You do understand that only one of those religions can be true right? So, if in your game God is real, then it follows one of those IS evil.

Your argument is invalid.
If they both get smites again each other, how can could you tell?

The existence of supernatural powers doesn't automatically answer all metaphysical questions. In fact, it probably raises more than it dispels.