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Author Topic: Detect Evil  (Read 6144 times)

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2021, 07:50:10 PM »
(As an aside, less quoting would make things more readable, I think. More than two nested quotes is getting excessive, in my opinion.)
(As an aside, (and not in this this post,) you multi-quote too much. Doing it less would make things more readable. I know this with the absolute certainty of detect evil forum software-induced habits.)

Edit: Don't take this too seriously. I was amused by the timing of our last two posts, so I'm poking fun.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 07:58:47 PM by Pat »

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2021, 08:10:05 PM »
(3) There is absolute good and evil, but there is cultural complexity and some cultures are verifiably evil by the alignment system but still think of themselves as good.

I'm not sure I see the point of #3. If there is moral complexity to the world and its cultures, then why have a simplistic absolute alignment system?
I mentioned it earlier, but Poul Anderson's The Mermaid's Children is classic because of this very reason. It's a world where good and evil are absolute -- and follow the laws of the medieval Church. For a modern reader, it creates a massive degree of dissonance, because that way of thinking is so far from ours. Those who are steeped in Catholic doctrine will have less of a shock, but it's still very distant from any modern belief system. And that's purely metatextual; there are no easy, modern-analogue characters in the story who say what the reader is thinking. But the main struggle of the book -- in the character development sense, not in the plot -- is a conflict between that world view, and a view that's outside that worldview. It's not an easy or a happy book, but I think it's an excellent illustration of the concept. Anderson deals with this theme in other fantasy novels, but this is the most concentrated dose.

HappyDaze

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2021, 08:22:36 PM »
There's a pretty big difference in disagreeing with the morality of a world law that defines morality. One that disagrees with the morality of aging still ages and one that disagrees with the morality of gravity is still at risk of falling. Is one that disagrees with the morality of a world law of absolute good/evil still bound by it? In the fantasy world of absolute good/evil, I say they are. The Sith is still evil even if he claims the Jedi are the bad guys because that's the world law of the setting.
That's what you seem to be missing -- yes, if good and evil are objectively defined in a world, you're bound by it. If you ping as evil, then smite evil will burn. You'll show up on thoughtcrimeI mean detect evil maps. You might be ignored by certain creatures, subject to certain afflictions, and so on.

That doesn't mean people have to agree that the classification is just. That it exists doesn't mean it's right.
I would say that in that world, it does make it right (and those in that world that don't agree are therefore wrong). Like I said before though, it's a very fantastical take that requires divergence from how good and evil are (hopefully) viewed IRL.

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2021, 08:33:34 PM »
There's a pretty big difference in disagreeing with the morality of a world law that defines morality. One that disagrees with the morality of aging still ages and one that disagrees with the morality of gravity is still at risk of falling. Is one that disagrees with the morality of a world law of absolute good/evil still bound by it? In the fantasy world of absolute good/evil, I say they are. The Sith is still evil even if he claims the Jedi are the bad guys because that's the world law of the setting.
That's what you seem to be missing -- yes, if good and evil are objectively defined in a world, you're bound by it. If you ping as evil, then smite evil will burn. You'll show up on thoughtcrimeI mean detect evil maps. You might be ignored by certain creatures, subject to certain afflictions, and so on.

That doesn't mean people have to agree that the classification is just. That it exists doesn't mean it's right.
I would say that in that world, it does make it right (and those in that world that don't agree are therefore wrong). Like I said before though, it's a very fantastical take that requires divergence from how good and evil are (hopefully) viewed IRL.
No, in that world, the only thing that's objectively wrong would be denying that objective good and evil exist. Disputing that they're really good and evil is purely subjective, and thus there is room for a wide range of opinions on the subject.

This might be a language issue, circling back to my trite and literal comment. In that world, a specific set of properties called good on the one hand, and evil on the other, exist and can be independently verified. They're real in that sense, and they're good and evil in that sense. But that's the most trivial use of those words, because the words good and evil, as we use them in conversation, are not defined by the characteristics of a particular world. Using our world's English words of "good" and "evil" to describe the objective characteristics of another world doesn't change how we use the terms. To us, as we talk about that theoretical world, they're subjective terms, used to describe how we interpret different behaviors, and even things and events. The variation on how they're used is effectively infinite, if somewhat circumscribed by limits of human understanding, and tends to orbit certain great attractors defined by everything from biology to culture. You seem to be using good and evil in a very narrow sense as technical terms or terms of art, but that doesn't and can't override what other people mean when they say good and evil in other contexts.

tl;dr just saying they're good and evil doesn't make it so

Shasarak

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2021, 11:07:05 PM »
Edit: Don't take this too seriously. I was amused by the timing of our last two posts, so I'm poking fun.

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This Guy
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2021, 01:53:03 AM »
Flip this around, is it cool for people to use Detect Good to hunt and kill the objectively good, y/n/I've already blocked you
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S'mon

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2021, 02:42:14 AM »
D&D Alignments were supposed to be "the faction you're *aligned* with" - just as in Anderson & Moorcock Law v Chaos. Everyone knew which faction they supported. This is clear in the earliest stuff, but gets progressively muddied as Gygax also wanted to use it as a way to punish badly played Paladins - "You're doing LG wrong!"

In the CSIO, the Clanute (Senate) has factions that are explicitly LG, LE, CN etc - they act like political parties, Whigs v Tories. Everyone thinks their own Alignment is best.

IRL of course in a system like this either no one will call themselves Evil, or Evil will mean something completely different than IRL. For the Evil-Aligned, Evil is a good thing.

Marchand

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2021, 03:27:32 AM »
The simple thing is to limit it only to detection of supernatural beings or manifestations that can be said to be "objectively" evil - might be undead or Lovecraftian mythos entities or demons or whatever.

If your world has a well-defined pantheon then each god could grant a version of "detect evil" that works against "enemy" gods. The first sentence is really just a simplified version of this.

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jeff37923

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2021, 05:17:03 AM »
The conversation is interesting, but instead of pining down exact parameters for Detect Evil (or honestly, almost any Detect spell a PC uses), I let the definitions be squishy so that it can provide a needed nudge to get the action going if the party gets bogged down.
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HappyDaze

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2021, 05:52:31 AM »
If your world has a well-defined pantheon then each god could grant a version of "detect evil" that works against "enemy" gods. The first sentence is really just a simplified version of this.
That could almost be a parody of sadly common real-life thinking where it would simply be called detect them (i.e., anyone that is no one of us).

Age of Sigmar (and its Soulbound RPG) somewhat has this where the gods of Order, Chaos, Death, and Destruction form the primary divide among the factions. That doesn't make Order good--it includes a crazy-ass cult of murderous she-elves and bands of god-hating, soul-stealing sea elves right alongside the righteous hold crusaders of the setting.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 05:56:12 AM by HappyDaze »

Omega

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2021, 06:22:07 AM »
That could almost be a parody of sadly common real-life thinking where it would simply be called detect them (i.e., anyone that is no one of us).

See my descriptions of the spell in BX and AD&D.
By 2e it was back to intent rather than a flat detection.

In 3e its back to detecting Evil, but now if the evil is higher level than the caster theres a chance it actually stuns the caster. Level of detection got stronger the longer concentrated on detecting.

4e has no detect evil at all seems.

5e Basic also has no Detect evil. Standard game though Detect Evil is the weirdest yet. It does not detect evil at all? It detects Abberrants, Fiends, etc. WTF???

Ratman_tf

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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2021, 08:08:22 AM »
That could almost be a parody of sadly common real-life thinking where it would simply be called detect them (i.e., anyone that is no one of us).

See my descriptions of the spell in BX and AD&D.
By 2e it was back to intent rather than a flat detection.

In 3e its back to detecting Evil, but now if the evil is higher level than the caster theres a chance it actually stuns the caster. Level of detection got stronger the longer concentrated on detecting.

Oh wow. There's an idea. Casting Detect Evil, or Know Alignment having a chance to backfire if the target is very powerful, or is drawing attention of whatever Evil Powers.
Hmmm...
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2021, 08:38:01 AM »
It seems to me the best solution is to remove Detect Evil and possibly Know Alignment, and replace them with:

Detect Danger: This spell allows the caster to sense the intent to do him and his companions harm. The motivations are not revealed, and it only applies to creatures (so a trap or a natural hazard wouldn't trigger it).

Detect Quintessence: Quintessence is the side effect of supernatural creatures on their environment. This spell allows the caster to detect or trace such planar effects, whether good or evil. Outsiders can be easily detected by this spell, and even after they have left the area their signature 'lingers' for one day per hit die.

And for fun, here's an idea for a spell that involves alignment:

Tasha's Conundrum: The caster poses a ethical and moral question to the target which causes it to stop in its tracks to evaluate the problem.  While affected, the target cannot make any action other than to withdraw or move away, although they are not helpless and can actively avoid attacks, make saving throws, etc. The base duration is 1d4 rounds, +1 for every 'step' that the target's alignment differs from the caster (example: a lawful good caster targets a neutral evil enemy with this spell. If they fail the save, they are stuck considering the conundrum for 1d4+3 rounds). The target must be able to hear and understand the caster, and it does not work on creatures with Intelligence 2 or less.

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2021, 08:47:46 AM »
5e Basic also has no Detect evil. Standard game though Detect Evil is the weirdest yet. It does not detect evil at all? It detects Abberrants, Fiends, etc. WTF???
I'm not familiar with 5e, but that's one of the variations on detect evil that's always made a lot of sense, from a game standpoint. In D&D, the Outer Planes are the alignment planes, each inhabited by, infused by, and iconic exemplars of the 8/9/17 alignments. The Abyss isn't just another place, which happens to be where some crazy bad creatures live. No, it's the place that embodies the Chaotic Evil alignment, and demons are the flag-bearers of CE.

More than that, the creatures of the Outer Planes, and the planes themselves, are divine. Some are literally angels, and others are creatures adapted from various mythologies, but in both implied and explicit ways, they're spiritual rather than fully material beings. Demons don't just happen to be CE, they are made of the literal manifestation of CE. They, along with the other Lower Planes and their natives, detect as evil not because of their actions, but because of their essence.

The reason this is useful design decision is because it removes the onus of judging individual actions from the DM and players -- demons are evil by their very nature. That means it's a definitional, rather than a legalistic, determination. Which has real advantages in the real world, because everyone has their own moral framework, which means the moral assumptions of different gamers are always going to conflict. Are orcs naturally evil, and is killing their babies justified? What makes a paladin fall? Those are sloppy questions, and different people have different answers. But by defining evil as metaphysical, it removes those quandaries. Evil means you're from the Lower Planes, or you get your power from there (like a cultist of Orcus). That's easy and straightforward to determine, almost mechanical.

Pat
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Re: Detect Evil
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2021, 09:16:10 AM »
D&D Alignments were supposed to be "the faction you're *aligned* with" - just as in Anderson & Moorcock Law v Chaos. Everyone knew which faction they supported. This is clear in the earliest stuff, but gets progressively muddied as Gygax also wanted to use it as a way to punish badly played Paladins - "You're doing LG wrong!"

In the CSIO, the Clanute (Senate) has factions that are explicitly LG, LE, CN etc - they act like political parties, Whigs v Tories. Everyone thinks their own Alignment is best.

IRL of course in a system like this either no one will call themselves Evil, or Evil will mean something completely different than IRL. For the Evil-Aligned, Evil is a good thing.
Were they? It's true that factions have become common in wargames, and the term itself implies sides, but Chainmail doesn't have alignment. You could build an army with elves, orcs, dragons, and pixies, if you want.

OD&D talks about taking a "stance", says players must "select a role", and has numerous creatures that appear in two or even all three alignment charts. In other places, the booklets talk about monsters being lured into service "if they are of the same basic alignment", that the "alignment and aims" of the ego sword and its wielder must be in harmony, and there's always the infamous helm of chaos (law) aka alignment change. These all suggest (without every coming out and explicitly saying it) that alignment is part of your nature/behavior and not just a political alliance. Moorcock and Anderson also treated it this way. Elric might have made a choice, but the Lords of Law were inflexible bastions of rigidity and intolerance. I think the idea of alignment was muddled from the start.

But I do like treating alignment as a side, rather than a moral proscription. It's also perfectly compatible with good and evil being defined by a connection to the Outer Planes.