The problem with item saves isn't that they are deprotagonizing (a thing I don't really care about until we get to where the GM is armchair-quarterbacking the roleplaying of the PCs to an obnoxious point; "no, your knight takes that as a slight against his honor and must challenge BlackKnight to a duel" sort of bullshit), it's that they are boring. There's all sorts of shit adventurers do that should abuse the contents of their backpacks, especially when they're full of fragile scrolls and fragile potion bottles, but the graceful thing to do is apply one save or dice roll and have it affect 1d6 or whatever of eligible objects so the game doesn't grind to a halt.

I don't really know what the best exact mechanics are for that – save on a 13 or better, 1d6 minus 1 eligible objects affected, with larger or smaller dice depending on what just happened to the character? I've never settled on anything for sure.

Quote from: Monster Manuel;693939Yeah, I guess the part I posted about Easy mode might have given the wrong impression about my opinion on the matter. It's not about being hardcore, per se, it's about being immersed in the setting. If you're playing gods, I'd expect that death would either be an inconvenience, or off the table. I just don't think that every game should strive to make things as easy on the players as possible. It seems like some people do (calling GMs who change PCs after play begins "bad".), and that's where any snark in my post might have come from- protectiveness over a style of play I enjoy-on both sides of the table.

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, then, but I agree that high-difficulty games are fine. I would note that lack of PC death isn't the same as "easy". For example, I've played a few very challenging strategy / politics games where our PCs were almost always safe behind the lines - but there were extremely difficult tests of skill.

Conversely, I've played in plenty of high-fatality beer-and-pretzels games where there were no complex tests of player thinking - just a lot of die rolling and a steady stream of new characters.

The two aren't connected, and both are just matters of taste or mood.

Quote from: apparition13;693949And my shining hero Paladin has effectively been killed by a magic item. Why is responding by ripping up the character sheet (or handing it to the DM) and rolling up a new character not a valid response? My character is Galahad, not Loki. You just killed Galahad and replaced him with Loki, I want to play Galahad, not Loki. Why should I have to continue by playing Loki rather than by rolling/stating up a new character?

Remove Curse is a 3rd level cleric spell.  End of problem.

This is not "killing your character," it is "introducing a complication."

Quote from: Old Geezer;694033Remove Curse is a 3rd level cleric spell.  End of problem.

This is not "killing your character," it is "introducing a complication."

I'm not going to review every edition of the game, but in 3.x, remove curse does not restore the original alignment.  Further, the character does not want to have their alignment restored, so will fight against it (just as a good character would be expected to fight against being turned evil in the first place).  

Quote from: SRDHelm of Opposite Alignment
This metal hat looks like a typical helmet. When placed upon the head, however, its curse immediately takes effect (Will DC 15 negates). On a failed save, the alignment of the wearer is radically altered to an alignment as different as possible from the former alignment—good to evil, chaotic to lawful, neutral to some extreme commitment (LE, LG, CE, or CG). Alteration in alignment is mental as well as moral, and the individual changed by the magic thoroughly enjoys his new outlook. A character who succeeds on his save can continue to wear the helmet without suffering the effect of the curse, but if he takes it off and later puts it on again, another save is required. The curse only works once; that is, a character whose alignment has been changed cannot change it again by donning the helmet a second time.

Only a wish or a miracle can restore former alignment, and the affected individual does not make any attempt to return to the former alignment. (In fact, he views the prospect with horror and avoids it in any way possible.) If a character of a class with an alignment requirement is affected, an atonement spell is needed as well if the curse is to be obliterated. When a helm of opposite alignment has functioned once, it loses its magical properties.

Strong transmutation; CL 12th; Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Price 4,000 gp;Weight 3 lb.

Interesting debate

A few replies but I can't be arsed to quote the text

Premier
Excaliber breaks in teh movie becuase Arthur uses in rage against its true purpose this is nothing like Gandalf battling a balrog and having Glamdring save versus magical fire or it being destroyed.

I am all for item saves at certain points, normally when the item is directly attacked and a handful of others. I am less in favour of doing it as a result of a generic attack against the party/PC that incidentally targets their equipment.

So a mage uses acid arrow to specifically target your sword, shield, potions wand.. then make a save; you get hit with acid breath by a black dragon as a generic attack then no save required.
Mostly this is to do with bookkeeping and unnecessary rolls interupting the flow of the action.

Apparition & Jhkim
I can see that you want to play certain characters. I think there is a fundamental difference in where we are comign from as to me that character takes on an existance beyond that of an avatar for me to express wish fulfilment through the game and takes on something of their own existance in the game world.
Looking at One Eye's post I get the impression that there are 3 schools.
The former Wargamer for whom loss of a PC is no biggie roll a new one start again, all adds to the story. The guys that set up a specific character they want to play and have a strong concept that may be tied to a build or may just be tied to a strong expression of an avatar. Then there would be folks like me who really really care that their character gets killed or injured but wants to carry on from there to see what the character can do to further their goals, to redeem themselves or whatever.
Take the diplomat that gets made into a pariah.. made me immediately think of Glokta from The Blade itself. A former fencer, handsome, rich, famour, tortured physical skills gone, rupulsive to look at, fame and fortune lost, So he joins the Inquisition and becomes a torturer himself. An excellent character and superb roleplay opportunity.
Also think of Tyrion Lannister, excellent politician, but repulsive to everyone, no one takes him seriously etc ...

Now I do think that if the game does have a major effect on a PC the GM has to provide space for that PC , for the player to find something they enjoy from it.
Its a bit like the bait and switch thread. If the character change leads to new roleplay opportunities and the chance for the player to develop then there really is no deprotagonisation. So turning a fighter into a cripple isn't terrible if there is an opportunity for the cripple to be engaged in play, changing a prince into a frog isn't bad if there is a hook for the frog so to speak.

Quote from: jibbajibba;694112changing a prince into a frog isn't bad if there is a hook for the frog so to speak.

I really do agree with this - but it's a matter of interest to the player.  If your character becomes a frog, that's an interesting character development issue for the character.  But it isn't necessarily interesting for the player.  

I have a six-year-old daughter, so I've seen Disney's Princess Frog a few times.  The struggle to regain human form makes for a good movie.  It could make for a good adventure, too.  But froggy prince isn't killing orcs.  His struggle is to regain his form.  

As a player I don't see it as a problem if you'd rather that journey happen to an NPC or to a PC.  You can retire a character for any reason - sometimes you just find that the character isn't as fun as you thought.  I know you wouldn't retire a character under any circumstances, but I'd definitely consider it if a particular character wasn't 'fun' anymore.

Quote from: vytzka;693777Or maybe he can withstand higher temperatures than you because he's Saint fucking George. Crazy shit like that.

If he can survive temperatures high enough to MELT STEEL, he's not Saint fucking George, he's Saint fucking Kal-El.

Anyhow, he sure as shit doesn't need armor to fight that dragon, he can just rip its limbs and tail off with his bare hands, or some such.


That being said, I hope we can all agree that people play these games with a wide spectrum of motivations, expectations and breaking points.

Quote from: Old Geezer;694033Remove Curse is a 3rd level cleric spell.  End of problem.

This is not "killing your character," it is "introducing a complication."

It's a complication that, depending on why I enjoy playing this particular character, can be a dealbreaker. If the shit you made up that you thought would be fun winds up turning a PC I had fun playing into one I don't enjoy playing, why should I continue playing it? I can roll up a PC in two minutes, and come up with something I like about them in another two.

Killed falling off a bridge, turned into a Vampire, helm of opposite alignment, reincarnated as a Otyugh, they all have fundamentally changed the character because the characters characterization has changed. The fact the three of the four aren't a corpse doesn't change the fact that that PC is no more, and if I don't want to play the new character, I'm not going to. Hand me the dice.

Quote from: jibbajibba;694112Apparition & Jhkim
I can see that you want to play certain characters. I think there is a fundamental difference in where we are comign from as to me that character takes on an existance beyond that of an avatar for me to express wish fulfilment through the game and takes on something of their own existance in the game world.

What does wish fulfillment have to do with anything? Who said anything about wish fulfillment? I make a character, I play them, with the memorable ones something emerges out of the play that makes them especially enjoyable to play, something that usually surprises me.

If that something is the fact that, in the case of my elven archer, the most important element of my enjoyment of playing the character is his alignment (CN), which resulted in a character that constantly surprised me by the single-minded effectiveness of the solutions he came up with. Something about playing CN in this case led my creativity in a direction where the only consideration for solving problems was effectiveness; sometimes it was funny, sometimes horrifying, but always interesting. That experience would be impossible with a lawful alignment; from the standpoint of why I have fun playing the character, the character is gone. Taking away that element (alignment in this case) is taking away my source of enjoyment. In effect, the character is dead; time to roll up a new one.

QuoteLooking at One Eye's post I get the impression that there are 3 schools.
The former Wargamer for whom loss of a PC is no biggie roll a new one start again, all adds to the story.

I'm saying changing a PC can = loss of a PC, in which case it's time for the next PC.

QuoteSo turning a fighter into a cripple isn't terrible if there is an opportunity for the cripple to be engaged in play, changing a prince into a frog isn't bad if there is a hook for the frog so to speak.

It depends on what defines that character to the player. If swashbuckling action man fighter has been turned into a cripple, that's a deal breaker. If crafty strategist fighter has been turned into a cripple, maybe not.

Just because something is a roleplaying challenge doesn't mean the player should be forced to accept that challenge if they don't want to. An implication in this thread seems to be that if you don't accept the challenge you're being a wuss; I say you've(I've) got better things to do with your(my) time than waste it on something you(I) think is unfun.

All of what apparition13 said.

Quote from: apparition13;694180What does wish fulfillment have to do with anything? Who said anything about wish fulfillment? I make a character, I play them, with the memorable ones something emerges out of the play that makes them especially enjoyable to play, something that usually surprises me.

There is a certain character you wish to play you crerate said character and play it. That is the wish fulfilment. Nothing wrong with that I start that way with all my PCs.

QuoteIt depends on what defines that character to the player. If swashbuckling action man fighter has been turned into a cripple, that's a deal breaker. If crafty strategist fighter has been turned into a cripple, maybe not.

Just because something is a roleplaying challenge doesn't mean the player should be forced to accept that challenge if they don't want to. An implication in this thread seems to be that if you don't accept the challenge you're being a wuss; I say you've(I've) got better things to do with your(my) time than waste it on something you(I) think is unfun.

Take my example of Glokta, swashbuckler turned inquisitor. Or Batgirl's transformation to Oracle.

I am not saying you are being a wuss... after all we are sitting round a table pretending to be elves or whatever so wuss kind of sums up the whole deal I am merely suprised that you would dispose of a character that you have build up wanted to play, enjoyed sharing time with and developing because they underwent a negative life event, I can of course admit that that might be because I take my characters a little too seriously.....

A life-changing event turns the character you were envisioning into a somewhat different character.

You can have two kinds of transition - when a character you wanted to play turns into a character you still want to play, and when a character you wanted to play turns into a character you don't want to play anymore and wouldn't have wanted to play at the start of the game either.

That's all there is to it.

Some people can play a lot of different character types without missing a beat. Some only have a narrow list of archetypes they like - that is not an issue, as long as they're appropriate to the setting. Some vary between both but can't make a switch from character A to character A+ in the same person because it's too jarring.

Just play the characters you want to play, people. The other way lies unhappiness and burnout.

Quote from: jibbajibba;694196There is a certain character you wish to play you crerate said character and play it. That is the wish fulfilment. Nothing wrong with that I start that way with all my PCs.

So any character I choose to play is wish fulfillment, by definition? That's fine - but it's not the usual way that I've seen "wish fulfillment" used.

Quote from: jibbajibba;694196Take my example of Glokta, swashbuckler turned inquisitor. Or Batgirl's transformation to Oracle.

I am not saying you are being a wuss... after all we are sitting round a table pretending to be elves or whatever so wuss kind of sums up the whole deal I am merely suprised that you would dispose of a character that you have build up wanted to play, enjoyed sharing time with and developing because they underwent a negative life event, I can of course admit that that might be because I take my characters a little too seriously.....

Personally, I'm an enthusiastic Call of Cthulhu player.  I enjoy characters going through lots of negative life events. I generally enjoy choosing how my characters grow and change as a result of their experiences.

However, yes, sometimes I will stop playing a character if their life is not something I want to play right now. In particular, magical transformations like mind control, possession, spiritual conversion or alignment reversal are sudden and drastic changes of what I will be playing - and may be outside of my interest.

As an alternate example, suppose my character has succeeded awesomely and has taken over a fiefdom. I could continue to play that character and shift into a game of doing politics and intrigue - but it might be that I'm not interested in doing that. Instead, I might switch to a new PC like Glokta who became an inquisitor after his life was ruined by torture.

Quote from: jhkim;694312So any character I choose to play is wish fulfillment, by definition? That's fine - but it's not the usual way that I've seen "wish fulfillment" used.

Well in some games you role a truly random character, say Elric, or Super power acquisition in V&V. If you are a player who comes up with a concept then creates the character to fit that concept so they can play it then that is wish fulfilment.

QuotePersonally, I'm an enthusiastic Call of Cthulhu player.  I enjoy characters going through lots of negative life events. I generally enjoy choosing how my characters grow and change as a result of their experiences.

However, yes, sometimes I will stop playing a character if their life is not something I want to play right now. In particular, magical transformations like mind control, possession, spiritual conversion or alignment reversal are sudden and drastic changes of what I will be playing - and may be outside of my interest.

As an alternate example, suppose my character has succeeded awesomely and has taken over a fiefdom. I could continue to play that character and shift into a game of doing politics and intrigue - but it might be that I'm not interested in doing that. Instead, I might switch to a new PC like Glokta who became an inquisitor after his life was ruined by torture.

I have had PCs who look arround at their feifdom, role as captain of the palace guard or whatever and decide its not for them pack a few belongings into a backpack take their horse and head out into the wild yonder.... Even if they don't do that and stay and we go onto play another sort of game they are still characters that I may well go back to if the right game starts up.

I guess its becuase I establish a relationship with the character and that relationship means I am not just going to loose interest becuase they were reincarnated as a giant mouse, lost an arm or turned Evil.  
I get to a point of say finding a help of alignment change you are probably mid level just from probability of random tables, possibly higher if the DM has put it in deliberately to shake up the table. At that point you have spend hours maybe weeks or months inhabiting the character just to discard them like you would an army unit in Risk or a knight in chess seems to me to have missed out on a huge element of RPGs for me the opportunity to bring to life these disperate characters and imbue them with something beyond being complex playing pieces in an open ended board game.

wish-fulfillment, as a term, doesn't really encompass varied motivations for playing a determined character type, IMO.

Specifically, exploration, wanting to experience approaching life from a foreign PoV. For some immersionist players this can be quite rewarding in a way not akin to fulfilling a wish necessarily. Curiosity is encompassed in this , but can apply more broadly. "exploration of the Other" is the fancy pants phrase Paul Mason used to describe the enlightening experience of playing characters strongly grounded in alien cultures. There's also the expression of spontaneous imagination. I've had characters spring forth into my mind just thinking about the game, hearing the GM describe the setting, etc. It's almost unavoidable. And these are largely highly flawed individuals. But flawed in a way that fits, or grows out of, the world. Im not exploring a specific fantasy (wish, it's obviously a fantasy in the technical sense).

RPGs are many and vary greatly in approach and thus the approach of the player. In relatively certain nothing in my Call of Cthulhu campaign represents any sort of wish-fulfillment for the players. And chargen in my game consists of nothing more than "tell me what kind of character you want to play. Tell me thier strengths and weaknesses and motivations". And then I do the stats, takes less than a minute if the character is superpowered or super skilled, roughly 20 sec.

"wish fulfillment", on the other, implies deriving satisfaction in the classic Freudian 'pleasure principal' sense.

At least to me.

I think there has been a lot of demonizing of or at least sneering at wish fulfillment in games as being somehow wrong an immature. So folks will be understandably shy about it.