I really don't get the whole "I only associate with people of above average intelligence" thing. I see it alot on forums, and not just from denners like GC and LM. But to me it is the height of elitism to talk about people with lower IQs as if they are subhuman. I can happily game with people who are more intelligent than me, of the same intelligence or equal to me (I also don't think intelligence is something that is so black and white that one is simply higher or lower than others----there is a good deal of texture to intelligence). If you are denying yourself the company of great gamers who might be a lot of fun at the table over something like this, I think you are seriously missing out. For me it is more about whether people are interesting, nice and fun than whether they can score well on an IQ test.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;588203.
If you are not using your characters abilities then your success is down to GM fiat. So yeah you better be getting in his head and on his good side if you want to do anything.

Demonstrably not true, and what more, I cited an actual example. White. Plume. Mountain.

That is a published adventure with multiple situations where actual Player Skill - NOT character abilities, NOT GM Fiat - are essential to success. You'd die 10' from the entrance if you even were allowed to read the thing in advance because you suck so hard.

The reason you cannot imagine player skill existing is simply because you don't possess any.You're a random number generator, and nothing more.

Name one thing you've done in an RPG, at the actual table, that didn't involve you looking up a number on your character sheet then rolling a certain number or higher on a die that actually made a difference in the game? Because if that's all you can do, you can be replaced by a web app.

If you ever had to play with out your power deck build character or do something outside of beat a target number with them, you'd fall right on your unimaginative, skill-less, ass. Because by the time your done making your character your entire contribution to the ga,e as a player is done. Before the fucking game even starts.

You don't even need to show up at the table. You could email your stat block to the GM, and they could push a button on a smartphone they keep at your place on the table, and it'd be the same play experience except for the added benefit of actually having to put up with your assholery.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588231I really don't get the whole "I only associate with people of above average intelligence" thing.

It's a cack-handed, feeble tactic to claim superiority in the face of overwhelming evidence against.  The last defence to shore up a sagging ego that is constitutionally incapable of admitting "I don't know" instead of spouting easily refuted nonsense that only causes further frustration and lashing out.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;588233Demonstrably not true, and what more, I cited an actual example. White. Plume. Mountain.

I haven't been paying attention to most of this conversation but this post does ruffle my feathers. The thought that having abilities that are useful makes someone unimaginative is provably false. I've said it before but what I'm curious about is what is White Plume Mountain and what do you do in it that requires only player skill where nothing on their character sheet is actually a factor in bypassing the challenges there-in.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588231I really don't get the whole "I only associate with people of above average intelligence" thing. I see it alot on forums, and not just from denners like GC and LM. But to me it is the height of elitism to talk about people with lower IQs as if they are subhuman. I can happily game with people who are more intelligent than me, of the same intelligence or equal to me (I also don't think intelligence is something that is so black and white that one is simply higher or lower than others----there is a good deal of texture to intelligence). If you are denying yourself the company of great gamers who might be a lot of fun at the table over something like this, I think you are seriously missing out. For me it is more about whether people are interesting, nice and fun than whether they can score well on an IQ test.

It has nothing to do with IQ tests and everything to do with being able to grasp concepts and learn.

Now it's true that I only associate with above average players when it comes time to actually play a game. Intelligence wise though, even average will do but more is better. I do regard stupid people, or more precisely idiots as subhuman as idiots can learn but choose not to do so. Learning (and subsequently adapting) on a large scale is what separates humans from every other animal, so people that do not exhibit this trait literally have nothing to show for themselves as people. Especially since many animals can and do learn on smaller scales and therefore they deserve less respect than pet dogs.

Whatever their reasons or motivations people that cannot learn also cannot be good company at anything, especially not a game that requires learning.

So yes, when some guy like Stormbringer spouts off about there being no worthless classes when there demonstrably are, and many at that they're giving the initial impression they have no idea what they are talking about and this soon expanded into full scale stupidity. I am missing nothing by excluding them, or refusing to lower my game standards in the slightest such that any character they'd make will die horribly in seconds. I am gaining quite a bit though.

If guys like Stormbringer were smart, they'd figure out the actual ways to make worthless classes not worthless, if it were possible at all instead of just making empty claims that will be immediately disregarded as more basket weaver bullshit. They'd do something like the Truenamer of Epicness, where they take a class even more worthless than the Fighter, and make it actually very good. They could not do this though because even if they found a way to make Fighter levels not worthless it'd still be the base creature doing all the heavy lifting. There'd be no real synergy. Whereas Truenamers, terrible as they are actually do stuff that isn't summarized as attack for HP damage or impose a very minor status effect. And so it is possible to actually get relevant use out of them... it's just exceedingly unlikely, and impossible in most standard scenarios.

Quote from: MGuy;588261I haven't been paying attention to most of this conversation but this post does ruffle my feathers. The thought that having abilities that are useful makes someone unimaginative is provably false. I've said it before but what I'm curious about is what is White Plume Mountain and what do you do in it that requires only player skill where nothing on their character sheet is actually a factor in bypassing the challenges there-in.

I'm gonna +1 to this. Having looked over the module a bit I can think of plenty of things on my standard character sheet that would be pretty useful.

Quote from: Mr. GC;588263It has nothing to do with IQ tests and everything to do with being able to grasp concepts and learn.

It's like rain on your wedding day.

QuoteSo yes, when some guy like Stormbringer spouts off about there being no worthless classes when there demonstrably are...

Except there aren't.  'Demonstrably' means 'it can be demonstrated'.  You haven't, not even remotely.  This is one of those times when the person making the claim has the burden of proof.

QuoteIf guys like Stormbringer were smart, they'd figure out the actual ways to make worthless classes not worthless...

That would be impossible; as I have stated, there are no worthless classes.  
(Which, before you make a mess in your pants, is a refutation of your unsupported original claim.  Since you have not even made the attempt to prove your claim, stating the negation is sufficient.)

However, if you find you are experiencing a great deal of failure with a particular class, simply stop being a shitty player.

Quote from: Mr. GC;588079I got one here to admit about the only job that wouldn't fire an incompetent employee would be McDonalds. They had no problem with their character being the equivalent of a burger flipper.

Obvious liar is obvious.

QuoteWell you're right about it being used on the lowest common denominator at least. Progress!

So if real life behaviour and game behaviour are synonymous in your view,that means....you spend your entire game ineptly trolling chatrooms?

QuoteNo, I avoided you losers.

Bitter because the adults wouldn't let you play with them huh?

Quote from: MGuy;588261I haven't been paying attention to most of this conversation but this post does ruffle my feathers. The thought that having abilities that are useful makes someone unimaginative is provably false. I've said it before but what I'm curious about is what is White Plume Mountain and what do you do in it that requires only player skill where nothing on their character sheet is actually a factor in bypassing the challenges there-in.

95% chance he's just making up more bullshit but in case he got a 20 I'm checking. I made it as far as the random encounter tables before bursting out laughing.

Every 10 minutes, 1:12 chance for one of the following:

1: 1 Fuck you, your gear is getting eaten, immune: most of your attacks.
2: 2-5 Fuck yous, you're getting surprised half the time.
3: 2 Fuck yous, immune: non magical weapons and high enough damage to 1-2 round the level 5 PCs it is assuming.
4: 1 Fuck you, you are almost always surprised by an invisible attacker.
5: 1-3 I'm sorry for all the fuck you monsters, come back to me so I can abuse you mores.
6: 1-2 Fuck you, lose a level forever on every hits with Immune: Non magic non silver weapons and a bunch of other stuff.

Not a single thing says anything about creativity and player skill, in fact you must have these mechanical abilities to even try is hardcoded into it.

Quote from: Mr. GC;588280Not a single thing says anything about creativity and player skill, in fact you must have these mechanical abilities to even try is hardcoded into it.

Translation:
"I can only handle a game where everything is stacked heavily in my favour with open weeping taking care of the rest.  Hysterically sobbed rules lawyering is the result of these being denied."

Quote from: StormBringer;588286Translation:
"I can only handle a game where everything is stacked heavily in my favour with open weeping taking care of the rest.  Hysterically sobbed rules lawyering is the result of these being denied."

Hi Welcome

Quote from: Mr. GC;58828095% chance he's just making up more bullshit but in case he got a 20 I'm checking. I made it as far as the random encounter tables before bursting out laughing.

Every 10 minutes, 1:12 chance for one of the following:

1: 1 Fuck you, your gear is getting eaten, immune: most of your attacks.
2: 2-5 Fuck yous, you're getting surprised half the time.
3: 2 Fuck yous, immune: non magical weapons and high enough damage to 1-2 round the level 5 PCs it is assuming.
4: 1 Fuck you, you are almost always surprised by an invisible attacker.
5: 1-3 I'm sorry for all the fuck you monsters, come back to me so I can abuse you mores.
6: 1-2 Fuck you, lose a level forever on every hits with Immune: Non magic non silver weapons and a bunch of other stuff.

Not a single thing says anything about creativity and player skill, in fact you must have these mechanical abilities to even try is hardcoded into it.

So I went to the next page. After some uneventful stuff, and some forced metagaming, there's a fuck you you die and can't be raised encounter specifically designed to surprise the party, not even have them be aware they are being attacked until it is too late or be taken out via the usual method, instead having to rely upon your one singular Fireball ability (hey look, more actual abilities) or you just lose.

You then get trapped in a cage with stat saccing enemies and you can't get out via any means other than the key, which they explicitly state and also go well out of their way to state that even if you have the actual abilities to understand what you're supposed to do in the cage those will not detect the ambush.

We're only four rooms in and we've already hit plenty of fuck you, have the right ability or die and only one instance of forced metagaming (which they'd probably call player skill, while at the same time bitching about metagamers).

Quote from: Mr. GC;588306So I went to the next page. After some uneventful stuff, and some forced metagaming, there's a fuck you you die and can't be raised encounter specifically designed to surprise the party, not even have them be aware they are being attacked until it is too late or be taken out via the usual method, instead having to rely upon your one singular Fireball ability (hey look, more actual abilities) or you just lose.

You then get trapped in a cage with stat saccing enemies and you can't get out via any means other than the key, which they explicitly state and also go well out of their way to state that even if you have the actual abilities to understand what you're supposed to do in the cage those will not detect the ambush.

We're only four rooms in and we've already hit plenty of fuck you, have the right ability or die and only one instance of forced metagaming (which they'd probably call player skill, while at the same time bitching about metagamers).

So this is another old school adventure where the best thing to do is have an all caster party. (then again even that probably isn't enough to counter that much fuck you.)

Quote from: Mr. GC;588288Hi Welcome

Clever.  Thanks for making sure everyone can read my reply twice, though.

Quote from: StormBringer;588322Clever.  Thanks for making sure everyone can read my reply twice, though.

It is really. It treats you with the level of thought and respect you deserve and then moves on.