Quote from: mcbobbo;587783It brings up a side curiousity - how would you deal with deliberately non-optimal choices in your games?  E.g. character comes from a long line of basket weavers?

I'd probably advise the player that I'm not planning on touching on this topic in my campaign, and I'd make them reiterate to me that it won't wind up being a good investment.  But once everyone was fully informed, I think this would be the end of it.

I don't generally play games with that level of skill granularity.

If I did, I would encourage players to only take such skills for roleplaying reasons.

As I always have, I would reward good roleplaying.

Quote from: CRKrueger;587932Or by campaigning in a living, breathing world - where in between killing things and taking their stuff, you can use those skills offstage during "downtime".

Quote from: MGuy;587915Here is a major part of the issue I just want to highlight. There are a couple of things here I wanna draw attention to:

1) There is nothing inherently "wrong" with basket weaving or having a profession in general. It is logical, thematic, and helps verisimilitude because in any functioning world there are mundane necessities and luxuries people spend money and time on producing and enjoying.

2)The problem is not that such a thing exists but that we are (at least as far as DnD is concerned) not at all hampered by not having these kind of skills and are only perhaps marginally aided by having them because in most cases having the ability to weave a basket is never going to come up even in a minor way in a campaign.

3) This problem gets worse when you take into account that learning how to basket weave directly takes away from your ability to do other, more important, and more useful skills. In point buy games basket weaving would cost much less than other,much more useful skills or abilities.

4) Basket weaving is known to be a weaker option and that can breed resentment for people not wanting to be handicapped by someone in the group choosing a domestic skill that in no way helps the group. This is exponentially worse if the person's entire character is based around it. Making characters that can't actually do anything significant to aid the adventure can be looked at as disruptive.

5) This issue is often times propagated when people put themselves into camps instead of looking at the issue in a sensible way. Some GMs will wholesale accept basket weaving antics and actually encourage them by forcibly stretching the campaign to involve the skill or stretching what the skill can actually do. Other camps will just wholly deny the same, claiming that people who do it are subhuman or being disruptive.

All these things can be solved at the design stage by either not making basket weaving a thing you can ever choose to do, making it so attempting to do it is something the GM has total control of and getting it doesn't cost you any significant resources, or by making it cost something different then what more significant abilities cost.

Bolded because the rest of the post seems to have been lost somewhere.

Quote from: MGuy;588032Bolded because the rest of the post seems to have been lost somewhere.

Did you even read my posts on basketweaving? Its a monstrously useful skill in many circumstances, which invalidates your entire point. All such skills existed for a reason, and as such may find utility in any game.

Quote from: Roger the GS;587941CharOpjectivists?

I am Lord Mistborn and I am here to ask you a question. Is a player not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

No says Mearls you should be shackled to fighter level

No says the basketweaver you're just Rollplaying

No says the grognard you should be sucking the DM's cock

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different I chose the impossible. I chose...

D&D 3.5

A game where the player need not fear the rulebook
Where the optimizer would not be bound by petty randomness
Where the great would not be constrained by the small

and with the sweat of your brow D&D 3.5 can be your game as well.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;588069I am Lord Mistborn and I am here to ask you a question. Is a player not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

No says Mearls you should be shackled to fighter level

No says the basketweaver you're just Rollplaying

No says the grognard you should be sucking the DM's cock

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different I chose the impossible. I chose...

D&D 3.5

A game where the player need not fear the rulebook
Where the optimizer would not be bound by petty randomness
Where the great would not be constrained by the small

and with the sweat of your brow D&D 3.5 can be your game as well.

This is D&D, not the civil rights movement. All I can say is, if you have found  a style of play that works for you, that is great. I hope you enjoy it. I have run optimized campaigns and had a blast. But not everyone wants that kind of play.

Your obsession with GM fellatio really makes you come off as childish.

Quote from: Benoist;587942Like you are hiding you post on the Den and there are like, zillions of threads where you are posting, which would require me to make a superhuman effort to find this gem other than... actually visiting and clicking one the first threads at the top.

Well done, Inspector Clouseau! Brilliant deduction powers!

At least you know how to do a basic search. That makes you better than the other fucks here.

QuoteWhen you say that being a "basket weaver" is a life style and it's about the behavior of the person in general, not just gaming preferences, and that you then follow with "being an optimizer obviously makes you a better person because you'll generally seek to make your life better", what you are doing is basically saying that "basket weavers" are losers and horrible people who will do what they do in games, which to you is summarized as "blaming the DM or anybody else for their failings", in their lives also.

They actually do that. As in literally, real life basket weavers then go on to rage about their coworker getting a higher salary (because they have more experience, more responsibilities, more competence, or otherwise deserve it) and insist their coworker be dragged back down to their level.

I got one here to admit about the only job that wouldn't fire an incompetent employee would be McDonalds. They had no problem with their character being the equivalent of a burger flipper.

QuoteErgo, that's exactly the same thing as the brain damage argument. "you prefer those games, therefore this means you are inferior to me in every possible way because I like these games and that makes me a 'good person' (TM) and this extends far beyond gaming into everything you and I do in life. You are a 'bad person' (TM). Live with it."

You are crazy, you know that?

No, that's retard troll logic. Not that I expected any other kind from you.

Me: You can judge what people do by what they do.

And you can say "No shit Sherlock!", but you cannot say that isn't true because that makes you a moron.

You: You can judge what people do by what they play.

Not the same thing.

Quote from: TristramEvans;587943So its about lowest common denominator pop-psychology by the uneducated?

Well you're right about it being used on the lowest common denominator at least. Progress!

QuoteJust like every black person likes fried chicken and grape soda and every single Muslim is a terrorist right? God, B.T. was even better at prejudice than you.

I'm not even going to touch the terrorist comment, but if all other foods except fried chicken were gimp you'd better believe there'd be plenty of people eating it. Hell, I'm not black and I'm going to get some fried chicken now. It's good stuff, the fuck are you bitching about?

QuoteBoy, you sure had some shitty DMs.

No, I avoided you losers.

Quote from: mcbobbo;587991I wonder if some of the 'groknard' churn we're seeing isn't just psychological projection.

Thesus would be something along the lines of:

1) 3e engendered a strongly pro-charop mindset/playstyle/etc

2) 4e broke away from this, specifically with tighter control over splat

3) 3e is over a decade old, and 3e enthusiasts are no longer in their prime.

4) 5e will probably not go back to the days of 3e's glory, leaving such enthusiasts facing at least another decade

So they're looking in the mirrior and are watching themselves transform into groknards.  They then take to beating up on those who are fans of even older editions - specifically as a mechanism to hide their own pain.  But the fact remains that 3e is an old edition, only slightly more so than 2e, particularly when 5e rolls out.

I'm not trolling here.  I think this might genuinely provide some motive for all the venomous, vitroilic butthurt we've been subjected to of late...

4th has far more broken bullshit than 3rd. It's just that even breaking the game is boring, so no one cares that Orbizards/Infinite damage loops/etc.

3.x players are only grognards if you're a SA poster. And those guys would have a field day spamming quotes from you. They'd also have one spamming quotes from the Den, but what do you expect from such a forum?

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588077This is D&D, not the civil rights movement. All I can say is, if you have found  a style of play that works for you, that is great. I hope you enjoy it. I have run optimized campaigns and had a blast. But not everyone wants that kind of play.

Your obsession with GM fellatio really makes you come off as childish.

I found it hilarious. And dick jokes aside, that is the only way of getting ahead in those games. Guess what your DM is thinking and hope he likes you because if not you get "Our favorite edition is 2nd edition..."

Also, bully and bullshit the DM constantly, otherwise you will get nowhere. Not the sorts of things you should do to your friends, ya know?

Lordy

Quote from: Mr. GC;588079I found it hilarious and dick jokes aside ....

Then you and LM must be in the same class because that seriously isn't the sort of thing that people over 20 find funny. A good dick joke can be funny. But this just rises to the level of junior high dick joke.

Quote, that is the only way of getting ahead in those games. Guess what your DM is thinking and hope he likes you because if not you get "Our favorite edition is 2nd edition..."

Also, bully and bullshit the DM constantly, otherwise you will get nowhere. Not the sorts of things you should do to your friends, ya know?

I have played 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th....this doesn't match anything I have experienced for any of those editions. You are claiming "x happens if you play 2nd edition" yet I played it countless times and x didn't happen. No bullying or bullshit in the games I have run or played in.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588077This is D&D, not the civil rights movement. All I can say is, if you have found  a style of play that works for you, that is great. I hope you enjoy it. I have run optimized campaigns and had a blast. But not everyone wants that kind of play.

Your obsession with GM fellatio really makes you come off as childish.

Wow, flung technicolor poo, with a pietà-pose lead up. RPGs as civii rights followed by a 4-chan-poster-esque response. A new, but remarkable, low, like an interpretive dance of epileptic seizures.

It's... almost entertaining, if it wasn't tedious. :idunno:

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;588085

LM, you are in no postition to dispense English lessons.

Quote from: MGuy;5879154) Basket weaving is known to be a weaker option and that can breed resentment for people not wanting to be handicapped by someone in the group choosing a domestic skill that in no way helps the group. This is exponentially worse if the person's entire character is based around it. Making characters that can't actually do anything significant to aid the adventure can be looked at as disruptive.

This is the MMO performance mentality that has infected the tabletop scene due to turdheads like this.

Does this guy's character meet the specs for his class? No? Boot him from the group and go back into the looking for more queue. :rotfl:

Congrats. You sir are the Ricky Bobby of rpgs. :rolleyes:

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588081Then you and LM must be in the same class because that seriously isn't the sort of thing that people over 20 find funny. A good dick joke can be funny. But this just rises to the level of junior high dick joke.

Generally when someone says an idea, then says and, then starts talking about something else that something else is a different idea.

Sure enough, I said:

1: I found [the civil rights movement speech for optimizers] hilarious.
2: Dick jokes aside (meaning, jokes about blowing your DM aside) getting ahead in earlier editions...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588088LM, you are in no postition to dispense English lessons.

You know, since you're now the grammar police and all.

QuoteI have played 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th....this doesn't match anything I have experienced for any of those editions. You are claiming "x happens if you play 2nd edition" yet I played it countless times and x didn't happen. No bullying or bullshit in the games I have run or played in.

It's true in first and second. In 3.x only basket weavers have to bully the DM since you can actually succeed within the game.

Or if you'd prefer, pre 3rd everyone is a basket weaver.

MMOs didn't invent /kick gimp.

In fact most of the early ones didn't allow you many choices so you could only fuck up your character by not passing the gearchecks.

Quote from: Mr. GC;588099You know, since you're now the grammar police and all.
.

No. Attacking people's writing or reading comprehension is one of the lowest forms of posting. I am never critical of other peoples' grammar because I mostly post from my Ipad and therefore my posts are filled with typos. But if LordMistborn is going to accuse me of failing at English, his inability to construct a clear sentence becomes fair game.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;588111No. Attacking people's writing or reading comprehension is one of the lowest forms of posting. I am never critical of other peoples' grammar because I mostly post from my Ipad and therefore my posts are filled with typos. But if LordMistborn is going to accuse me of failing at English, his inability to construct a clear sentence becomes fair game.

So what is misunderstanding my post to mean something it clearly does not then?