I got news for you jibba: according to Mr. GC, you preferring AD&D 2e makes you a "basket weaver". This means you are a bad person, a loser, someone who will blame his problems on others all the time and be content with mediocrity. CharOpers, however, are objectively the better people, because they will seek to make their lives better, just like they optimize their characters for the game.

Quote from: MGuy;587915All these things can be solved at the design stage by either not making basket weaving a thing you can ever choose to do, making it so attempting to do it is something the GM has total control of and getting it doesn't cost you any significant resources, or by making it cost something different then what more significant abilities cost.

Or by campaigning in a living, breathing world - where in between killing things and taking their stuff, you can use those skills offstage during "downtime".

Quote from: CRKrueger;587929I really could have sworn that you were one of the people claiming that picking equipment and NWPs in AD&D was Character Optimization in the ludicrous attempt to state that CharOp as 3e knows it was always with us, even back in the shadows of history.

I guess I'm remembering wrong...or maybe the Denner Romance is over now that they've stopped just making fun of Ben's playstyle and now include yours as well.  

No I still think you can optimise, take a Paladin over a Fighter or a ranger over a military scout or do that RPG as a sport 10 foot pole play style where all of your PCs play the same way and do the same thing.

I just think you can't create a deliberately weak character. You can only be deliberately average because the option to drop HD for skills or drop to hit for additioanl languages don't turn up til 2e player options.

Going back to optimisation v role play. I don't think its a one off. I think you can play individual PCs who are optimised, just like you can play individual PCs who are 'professional adventures' with bags of ballbearings, flour, 10 foot poles etc etc ... its when all your Pcs are optimised or all your PCs are professional adventurers when you have to think about whether you are still roleplaying or not.

Quote from: Benoist;587930I got news for you jibba: according to Mr. GC, you preferring AD&D 2e makes you a "basket weaver". This means you are a bad person, a loser, someone who will blame his problems on others all the time and be content with mediocrity. CharOpers, however, are objectively the better people, because they will seek to make their lives better, just like they optimize their characters for the game.

Well no I am only a basket weaver if I choose to deliberately play a gimped character . I can do that a little in 2e but not nearly as well as I can in 3e.

And I totally accept that I am a basket weaver.

Quote from: jibbajibba;587922Who settled it?

You might be right about the games thing

I didn't lay out an argument I laid out an opinion.

You see this is how it works.

A preference is something like "Mistborn sounds like someone I would hate to play an RPG with"

An argument runs more like "We can dedude from his comments that Misborn has a very narrow social circle. He probably lives alone, gets very little exercise and lives on junk food. In order to compensate for his own lack of self worth he posts on internet forums adopting a high minded dismissive attitude to all other posters on his chosen topics. He believes this makes him seem impressive to other whilst in reality it only serves to make him appear socially inept and graceless. "

Now also note I use an ad hominem argument, something that specificially attacks the individual rather than the points they have made. I very, very rarely do this as I think its counter productive to any sort of discussion but I note it is your prefered method of debate so I am attempting to accommodate you.

Hi Welcome

Quote from: Benoist;587926Well, apparently being a "basket weaver" is not only about liking a particular play style. It's a life style, and it says something about you being a horrible person in everything you do, too...



So remember folks: the games you like and the play styles you prefer say something about your morals and your being in life in general. This is not just about you liking this or that game, or preferring to play this or that way. This is about your mental well being, whether you suffer from brain damage, and ultimately, whether you are a good or bad person.

You're obviously trying to turn this into some Forge bullshit, but it's about looking how people act outside of the game and then asking them how they act within it and finding out these two things are the same.

Also lol at you stalking my posts on another board.

Also lol at old editions not being optimizable.

Every single Fighter was longsword and board or a dart spammer, and I think there was one other weapon worthy of consideration out of the... dozens? Hundreds?

Jibba touched on pole dancing already.

Fireball, nuff said.

Even though most of it came down to getting good stats or committing suicide until you did get good stats there still was optimizing... you'd just die constantly anyways due to all the instant deaths flying about.

Quote from: Benoist;587930I got news for you jibba: according to Mr. GC, you preferring AD&D 2e makes you a "basket weaver". This means you are a bad person, a loser, someone who will blame his problems on others all the time and be content with mediocrity. CharOpers, however, are objectively the better people, because they will seek to make their lives better, just like they optimize their characters for the game.

CharOpjectivists?

Quote from: Mr. GC;587939Also lol at you stalking my posts on another board.

Like you are hiding you post on the Den and there are like, zillions of threads where you are posting, which would require me to make a superhuman effort to find this gem other than... actually visiting and clicking one the first threads at the top.

Well done, Inspector Clouseau! Brilliant deduction powers!

Quote from: Mr. GC;587939You're obviously trying to turn this into some Forge bullshit

When you say that being a "basket weaver" is a life style and it's about the behavior of the person in general, not just gaming preferences, and that you then follow with "being an optimizer obviously makes you a better person because you'll generally seek to make your life better", what you are doing is basically saying that "basket weavers" are losers and horrible people who will do what they do in games, which to you is summarized as "blaming the DM or anybody else for their failings", in their lives also.

Ergo, that's exactly the same thing as the brain damage argument. "you prefer those games, therefore this means you are inferior to me in every possible way because I like these games and that makes me a 'good person' (TM) and this extends far beyond gaming into everything you and I do in life. You are a 'bad person' (TM). Live with it."

You are crazy, you know that?

Quote from: Mr. GC;587939You're obviously trying to turn this into some Forge bullshit, but it's about looking how people act outside of the game and then asking them how they act within it and finding out these two things are the same.

So its about lowest common denominator pop-psychology by the uneducated?

QuoteEvery single Fighter was longsword and board or a dart spammer, and I think there was one other weapon worthy of consideration out of the... dozens? Hundreds?

Just like every black person likes fried chicken and grape soda and every single Muslim is a terrorist right? God, B.T. was even better at prejudice than you.

QuoteEven though most of it came down to getting good stats or committing suicide until you did get good stats there still was optimizing... you'd just die constantly anyways due to all the instant deaths flying about.

Boy, you sure had some shitty DMs.

Quote from: Benoist;587942Like you are hiding you post on the Den and there are like, zillions of threads where you are posting, which would require me to make a superhuman effort to find this gem other than... actually visiting and clicking one the first threads at the top.

Well done, Inspector Clouseau! Brilliant deduction powers!

Now, now, Benoist. As someone with 1800+ posts at the gaming den, you should know better than that. :rotfl:

QuoteYou are crazy, you know that?

Un-fucking-doubtably.

Quote from: Mr. GC;587910Better player = blow DM, or otherwise subject yourself to subjective bullshit. Um yeah. No.

Please feel free to go shit up some other thread.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;587914I'm no longer surprised to see this sort of ancient bullshit peddled on these forums.

Please feel free to go shit up some other thread.

Quote from: One Horse Town;587969Now, now, Benoist. As someone with 1800+ posts at the gaming den, you should know better than that. :rotfl:

:rotfl:

Hey, GC? Shine on, you crazy motherfucker!

I wonder if some of the 'groknard' churn we're seeing isn't just psychological projection.

Thesus would be something along the lines of:

1) 3e engendered a strongly pro-charop mindset/playstyle/etc

2) 4e broke away from this, specifically with tighter control over splat

3) 3e is over a decade old, and 3e enthusiasts are no longer in their prime.

4) 5e will probably not go back to the days of 3e's glory, leaving such enthusiasts facing at least another decade

So they're looking in the mirrior and are watching themselves transform into groknards.  They then take to beating up on those who are fans of even older editions - specifically as a mechanism to hide their own pain.  But the fact remains that 3e is an old edition, only slightly more so than 2e, particularly when 5e rolls out.

I'm not trolling here.  I think this might genuinely provide some motive for all the venomous, vitroilic butthurt we've been subjected to of late...

Nah, Mr. GC is just nuts and Lord Mistborn was stupid enough to get him to hold his hand here.

Quote from: mcbobbo;587991I wonder if some of the 'groknard' churn we're seeing isn't just psychological projection.

I'm not trolling here.  I think this might genuinely provide some motive for all the venomous, vitroilic butthurt we've been subjected to of late...

I would say it's more along the lines of cognitive dissonance.  They have been abandoned (twice!) by WotC after assuring everyone this was the edition to end all editions.