Quote from: Pat;1100362Even when someone doesn't argue, you're ceding the ability to challenge their opinions by raising an argument. Look at how much the overall debate in some many areas has shifted in just the last half a dozen years. That's because fringe voices have dominated the conversation. They were dismissed until they became dominant, and after that people were afraid to speak up. It's inflection point politics.

I definitely agree that a board like this is small potatoes. And so is the voice of anyone who isn't a major "influencer", to adapt a rather toxic term. But it's like voting: Your vote? It doesn't matter, not even a little. No race of any importance in the modern era has been decided by one vote, and it unlikely to ever be the case. But collectively? Votes matter, and so does speaking out. The delusion that your vote matters is why democracy works, and the same is true in the marketplace of ideas.

Or, to quote Mark Twain:

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Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100429Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

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Quote from: deadDMwalking;1100429Not just religious conservatives...  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,...

I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100453I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

That's inverting the situation. If the Constitution were treated as holy writ we wouldn't have Roe v Wade, the right of privacy, or other "constitutional" matters that were invented out of whole cloth by Supreme Court judges. The 9th and 10th amendments would still exist in practice, and would act as check on the unfettered growth of federal and even state and local governments.

What the people supporting the Constitution are saying is it's a law, the supreme law. But not in some mystical sense, just in the sense that it supersedes all other laws. And since the time of Hammurabi it's been recognized that there's a real value in laws that are written, have a specific meaning, and people agree on that meaning. That provides consistency, and ensures that the laws that are passed are the ones that are actually enforced, giving the power to the lawmakers, and therefore the public who elects them. When you have appointed figures just making up stuff, there's no accountability. When the law is ignored, there's no consistency because people can't predict how they'll be treated. Which is a particularly insidious threat, because it undermines the rule of law and the social contract by giving the government a sword of Damocles they can hold over the heads of anyone who doesn't comply with their whims. And when people talk about the Constitution being a "living document", they should be submitting amendments for approval by Congress and the states, allowing a public debate, consensus or consequences, and transparency. Just reinterpreting it in ad hoc ways with not justification beyond the vague sophistry that "times have changed" lets unaccountable philosopher kings and queens make decisions that cannot be overridden by any other part of government.

Plus, it's a good document. Not perfect; the Founding Fathers, like all people throughout history, were rooted in their time, and they had to make some squicky compromises. But they also made clever, pragmatic decisions and evoked transcendent principles that speak to the ages. In in the annals of political history it's one of the all time greats.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100453I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

Some do, but also many acknowledge it isn't so perfect that it cannot be amended.

For many Americans, these old documents and the narratives around them stand at the root of American culture. They've worked quite well for the most part. The difficulty in amending the Constitution also ensures a continuity.

While living abroad, I met many newly ex-pat'd Americans and Canadians that seemingly didn't get that they had a culture. They had quite a bit of culture shock, and formed very strong opinions of the different society. They didn't seem to get that their response to the different culture comes from a place of internalized cultural norms - that they had a distinctive culture.

There are a lot of things non-Americans don't easily get, and for good reason.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100336And the demographics of the woke - white, educated, middle and upper class class, extremely online - matches up pretty closely to the demographics of nerd culture.

THIS is an excellent point.

Quote from: JRT;1100355The "we should mock them" defense a few posters are using work if you were say a commentator or comedian with a large audience that could be swayed, but they do very little on a small message board with a micro-audience.

Pebbles in small ponds have a way of traveling.

If more people feel they are not alone in the culture war, they are more likely to take a stand. According to the MSM, everybody is either wonderfully woke or a naughty Nazi...and we good folk know what to do to Nazis! Thus many people have no idea the vast majority don't want to eat the SJW shit sandwich, but are afraid to speak up.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100380The reign of outrage will subside only once the rest of us realize just how many of us there are and how few of them.

Exactly, but that requires the "Mushy Middle" to stand up. As I mentioned in another thread, there's no effective difference between Silent Dissent and Silent Acceptance. Either way, the SJWs win control of the culture and society.

Quote from: jhkim;1100411As far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.

I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142

Quote from: Haffrung;1100453I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

That's because other democracies suck nut and the USA kicks almighty ass!!

[video=youtube;-aOt9x8WMrM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aOt9x8WMrM[/youtube]

Quote from: jhkimAs far as whether to respond about progressive opinions in gaming -- I don't mind it, but can we try to keep it more in Pundit's forum? I know that Pundit is allowing more of such discussion here in the RPG forum lately as moderator, but I feel like it threatens to drown out more practical gaming talk.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1100471I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142

Thanks, I will.

Even in the absence of an official yes to another forum, though, we can still try to encourage each other to reduce the amount of politics in the RPG forum.

Quote from: jhkim;1100474Thanks, I will.

Even in the absence of an official yes to another forum, though, we can still try to encourage each other to reduce the amount of politics in the RPG forum.

What did you expect when you clicked on a thread titled " Decolonizing D&D: Is your game problematic?"

Quote from: Spinachcat;1100471I started a thread in the Help Desk asking for a "Politics In Gaming" subforum. Everyone is welcome to comment there.
https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?41023-We-need-a-POLITICS-IN-GAMING-subforum&p=1100142#post1100142

Agree.

Quote from: FickleGM;1100400I will forego the rant brewing in my head, but boy have I grown to hate the word "problematic" and have come to equate it with the act of trying to remove something that I enjoy (usually as a foil or a challenge to be overcome) from the games I play or other media I digest.

I feel ya.  I want these SJWs to shut the fuck up and their enablers to finally figure out that aiding these assholes is a road to failure.  Maybe then the SJWs would get the medicine they so richly deserve.  Maybe then the hobby can move on to greater things.

Quote from: Haffrung;1100453I'm not the first person to remark that Americans treat their constitution like holy writ. People in other democracies don't give a shit what some dudes wrote a couple hundred years ago, except as historic or intellectual curiosities.

One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.

Quote from: Lynn;1100458While living abroad, I met many newly ex-pat'd Americans and Canadians that seemingly didn't get that they had a culture. They had quite a bit of culture shock, and formed very strong opinions of the different society. They didn't seem to get that their response to the different culture comes from a place of internalized cultural norms - that they had a distinctive culture.

That is certainly true. I see it much less with US Southerners though (the ones not under Yankee mind contol) - they have an awareness their culture is somewhat different from the dominant US culture, and so they are comfier with the idea that cultures differ. Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures. Like the American woman I knew who kept insisting that Yorkshiremen were horribly sexist because they called her 'love'. I pointed out they also called me 'love', but nothing seemed to register.

Quote from: S'mon;1100492One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to always hold the enemy to their own principles. So Alinskyites will appeal to the Constitution or to male chivalry if they think it will serve their ends, without themselves believing a word of it. Basically what DeadDM is doing above.

I know.  It's so goddamn fucking transparent, isn't it?  Tiring.

Quote from: S'mon;1100493Mainstream Anglo-Americans often seem to really struggle with the fact that they come from a particular culture and refuse to accept there are varying cultures.

We call these people morons.

I think we give them passports in hopes they won't return.

There are several regional "cultures" in the USA. Southern and Northern California don't even share the same culture, let alone the Northeast from the Southwest. Most of the big cities have their own culture. Noo Yawk isn't Philly which isn't Chicago.

The rocking boys in Overkill are quite clear that New Jersey has its own culture separate from the rest of the Northeast. Apparently, if you're from Jersey and have a band, it's state law you gotta sing about it.

[video=youtube;ujkLk9pVKwE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujkLk9pVKwE[/youtube]

Mandatory reply and Fuck Yeah! to Overkill.