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Author Topic: Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.  (Read 12880 times)

Stephen Tannhauser

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #120 on: September 18, 2019, 10:23:40 pm »
Quote from: jhkim;1104774
Generally speaking, sure, you can never please everyone. Conservative players might offended by approaches that please liberal players, and vice-versa. However, I think there are plenty of ways to support playing black characters in the old west without editing out the existence of historical racism.

I agree completely; you have a very reasonable take on the subject. To depict a situation of prejudice is not to endorse the viewpoint of the prejudiced characters.

Unfortunately that style of take is not what gets trotted out. It's not "conservatives preferring accuracy" vs. "liberals preferring erasure"; it's the fact that it doesn't matter what you do, there'll be some faction of SJ advocate willing to drag you over the coals for it if they can figure out a way how. This is what I meant by the kafkatrap.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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Omega

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #121 on: September 18, 2019, 10:32:18 pm »
Quote from: Libertad;1104718
The Deadlands Player's Guide as well as the Back East books encourage and claim that racism is the product of "individual villains" rather than organizations, governments, and institutions.

Actually true too. To a point. A person can own a slave and not be racist at all. So a government, organization, or institution can be free of racism.

The problem is when the "individual villains" gain some control or say over part or all of an organization that you get things going to hell. And do not think for one second that this is limited to just slavery. There are modern factories whos owners look down on the workers no differently than slaves and some even consider the worker a... parasite. No. I am not joking.

And lets face it. ANY organization is at risk of being co-opted. And being co-opted does not necessarily make the organization forever "evil". You just have to surgically remove the cancer festering in the body. Which is sadly usually easier said than done.

CRKrueger

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #122 on: September 18, 2019, 10:41:33 pm »
Quote from: Spinachcat;1104752
Of course, you can never kneel deep enough to appease SJWs, but if you kneel to them once, the screech mob knows you're an easy target for future harassment and demands.

Dance Shane dance! Let's see what you gotta "fix" next to keep the freaks appeased!


Quote from: wmarshal;1104766
Sadly, but not unexpectedly, this part is turning out to be true. Already I'm seeing folks at TBP demanding genuflection and apologies from Shane regarding how he even deigned to think how the CSA could survive the Civil War. I'm open to this change. I never thought it made sense that somehow the South would speed ahead over 100 years in terms of race relations. He'd have been better off explaining that he was making the change because upon further reflection the original idea of the CSA in Deadlands didn't make much sense, and he has interesting ideas on how to introduce Arthurian legend. Unfortunately some at TBP seem to be smelling blood, and a "step in the right direction" is no longer enough, but apologies and struggle sessions will be in order.


He's claiming those people who bashed him over the CSA will continue to do so, it appears he's right.
He said a ton would accuse him of pandering, it appears he's right. (Or course his explanation of the change didn't help.)

No matter what he does, people are going to shit all over him...but I'm betting most of those who are aren't big Deadlands peeps.

I have no idea what is happening in Dark Ages and what the fuck the Morgana Effect is, but apparently it's something that is compelling enough to reboot the whole damn thing (which would be a good idea anyway since everything's practically been done. Did anyone think he was going to get away with Deadlands WWI and WWII anyway?)

Going back to 400 or so, Dark Age Arthur and rebooting from there lets him avoid a huge swath of historical landmines and rewrite whatever he feels like.
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GeekyBugle

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #123 on: September 18, 2019, 10:43:35 pm »
Quote from: cranebump;1104772
They're probably saying the same thing about you. Meanwhile, those of us in the middle, who are tired of both your bitching would like you all to go to an island somewhere and just tongue kiss and get it over with.


Sorry happily married for over 20 years, not gonna break my votes of fidelity over some "middle ground" guy and much less with some dangerhair or her soyboys.

The really funny thing Is that I'm a classical liberal, so I'm really in the middle, just not willing to bury my head in the sand while they fuck over the world. Just remeber my words: "You'll be made to care"

I just wanted to play my games and read my comics/books.
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Omega

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #124 on: September 18, 2019, 10:51:48 pm »
Quote from: CRKrueger;1104788
He's claiming those people who bashed him over the CSA will continue to do so, it appears he's right.
He said a ton would accuse him of pandering, it appears he's right. (Or course his explanation of the change didn't help.)

Its called pre-empting. Its a business tactic. "Hey customers! Im going to make these major changes in the setting of this long running product. See there were people complaining before. And others will complain now that we are making these changes to appease those complaints! Just ignore those creeps that were playing the game WRONG! and buy our product!"
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 02:52:49 am by Omega »

Orphan81

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #125 on: September 18, 2019, 10:52:53 pm »
Quote from: Rhedyn;1104784
I am going to use this to further reinforce my observation bias that Deadlands fans do not really have an issue with this change.

I like to think that Shane himself no longer liked the CSA in his setting so he decided to remove them. I'm guessing Dark Ages is fleshing out enough lore that the CSA is no longer needed to fill out a conflict vacuum.


This right here. I've seen a lot of people in this thread even claiming how horrible this change is, despite not even being Deadlands fans in the first place. Complete with the guy earlier in the thread who had no idea how magic works, but was pretty sure he did, claiming Blessed were powered by Spirits.

The fans who are upset about this are in the minority by far. The vast majority of Deadlands fans are excited about this change, and part of it is because it shakes up a setting that's been around for 25 years and was starting to get stale.

Shane Hensley is one of the best people in the RPG industry, a class act whose always welcomed everyone from all sides of the political spectrum to game at his table. This really shouldn't be a controversial change, I've seen people talking about how it "invalidates 25 years of product and history!" which is frankly ridiculous. I hate Vampire the Masquerade 5th edition and happily still run 20th anniversary. There was a portion of gamers who disliked the change from Classic to Savage Worlds and still ran Classic. Nothing is stopping people from using the previous version of Deadlands, and it's not like Pinnacle is going to stop selling those products either.

jeff37923

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #126 on: September 18, 2019, 10:55:06 pm »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104789
I just wanted to play my games and read my comics/books.

That alone brands you as an enemy in their eyes.

Tait Ransom

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #127 on: September 18, 2019, 11:03:33 pm »
Quote from: GeekyBugle;1104789
"You'll be made to care"


Quoted for truth.

David Johansen

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #128 on: September 18, 2019, 11:29:12 pm »
Is it so bad that it's the retconning that offends me?  Not really a Dead Lands guy but man I hate retconning.  Couldn't they have just kept the time line and finally had the CSA lose the war?
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Shawn Driscoll

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #129 on: September 18, 2019, 11:34:07 pm »
Why are we buying Deadlands again?

CarlD.

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #130 on: September 19, 2019, 12:02:03 am »
Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1104674
It's a running-gag memetic shorthand for the imagined shrieks of outrage to which most excessively SJ-conscious screeds against any particular pop-culture entertainment can be reduced.

Not sure where it started, although Gamergate is a good bet.


Ah, I see. Thanks.
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sureshot

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #131 on: September 19, 2019, 12:04:14 am »
Never was a fan of the system yet like Rifts liked the background. Will I purchase the new edition unsure at the moment. I wonder which faction will take over from the CSA.

deadDMwalking

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #132 on: September 19, 2019, 12:06:46 am »
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1104796
Why are we buying Deadlands again?

From Wikipedia:
Deadlands is a genre-mixing alternate history role-playing game which combines the Western and horror genres,[1] with some steampunk elements. The original game was written by Shane Lacy Hensley and published by Pinnacle Entertainment Group in 1996.

The eight-times Origins Award-winning setting has been converted to many other systems over the years and is available in the original Classic Rules, the revised Classic Rules, d20 System, GURPS, as well as a Savage Worlds version called Deadlands: Reloaded.


Awards
Deadlands, its supplements and spin-offs have won nine Origins Awards:

Best Role-playing Rules of 1996 for Deadlands[9]
Best Graphic Presentation of a Role-playing Game, Adventure, or Supplement of 1996 for Deadlands[9]
Best Science Fiction or Fantasy Miniatures Rules of 1997 for Deadlands: the Great Rail Wars[10]
Best Roleplaying Adventure of 1997 for Independence Day[10]
Best Trading Card Game of 1998 [11]
Best Graphic Presentation of a Card Game of 1998[11]
Best Science Fiction or Fantasy Figure Miniature of 1998 for Hangin' Judge[11]
Best Vehicle Miniature of 1998 for Velocipede[11]
Roleplaying Game Supplement of 2007 for Deadlands: Reloaded [12]
When I say objectively, I mean 'subjectively'.  When I say literally, I mean 'figuratively'.  
And when I say that you are a horse's ass, I mean that the objective truth is that you are a literal horse's ass.

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Toric

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #133 on: September 19, 2019, 12:12:51 am »
Quote from: jhkim;1104774
This is interesting, and to me it speaks directly to the issue. Can you remember anything about what CSA characters were like? Were they counter-rebelling against the CSA, like in the Free State of Jones?

For example, I had a character once who was a Nazi, but he was a disloyal Nazi officer who was working against the system from within. (This was in an Amber Diceless campaign, so the focus soon shifted beyond Earth into the wider magical reality.) I would find it really weird to play in a game where there were Nazis, but they weren't racist.

I distinctly remember someone playing something akin to the cultured southern gentleman.  I don't believe the character had strong feelings one way or another regarding the CSA government, he just played up the dignified southern man angle.  He had gone west seeking his fortune further from the ravages and influences of two countries at war.  There was no played up racist angle.  As I recall he looked down his nose at anyone not as cultured as he was but there was nothing offensive about him.

I also believe I once had a player play a former slave.  All I recall is his character was resentful of the south in general, rightfully so despite the alternate history of a supposedly more honorable south.

Never did our games stray into objectionable territory as I recall.  We didn't dwell on the minute political details of the setting, instead focusing nearly entirely on pulpy adventure against the backdrop of the provided setting.   Bashing monsters and foiling the plots of evil men and women.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:14:52 am by Toric »

Warboss Squee

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #134 on: September 19, 2019, 12:30:00 am »
Quote from: Libertad;1104715

Furthermore, the Abrahamic God exists in Deadlands and grants powers to the Blessed, one of the supernatural background options. He gave said holy powers to members of the Confederate Army's Chaplains in 1863, which was 2 years before the fictional nation counterpart seriously considered manumission of slaves. Which regardless of whether or not the author's intended it, reads as having the major force for Good in the setting be backing a system of race-based chattel slavery. Furthermore, nowhere in Back East is the term State's Rights used, meaning that the Confederacy went from fighting for an evil cause to nothing at all in 1865.


Do you really think God gives a damn about slavery? Read the Old Testament. God's chosen, the Hebrews, enslaved tons of people.

I've been a Deadlands fan for a long time. The lack of slavery in the South never really bothered me, because they were still a bunch of racist, evil twats regardless. They could have kept slavery, and I still wouldn't care.

Because it's not real. And I'm an adult.