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Author Topic: Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.  (Read 23754 times)

CarlD.

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I thought this might be of interest to some on this site.  I found this on another gaming site. There seems to be some big changes coming to Deadlands: The Confederacy is being retconned so that it lost the war and is no longer a playable faction. This was listed as one of several things in an October update on the official site.

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Shane Lacy Hensley said:

Hey friends! Let's talk about today's Deadlands announcement.

I'm going to try and keep it short, but...we'll see. (Edit: I failed. :) )

First off, the ultimate decision to ditch the CSA in the Deadlands timeline is mine and mine alone. I created the world, I run the world with the help of some excellent people, and I know where it's heading.

Some may not know my bona fides, so here they are to avoid that discussion. I have a Masters Degree in Political Science and Military History. I've read dozens of books on the Civil War, visited at least a dozen museums, and walked the battlefields from Gettysburg to Franklin, TN and even out here in Arizona (the furthest "battle" of the West fought at Picacho Peak!). I've written historical miniatures rules featuring the ACW, was raised in both Ohio AND Virginia, and studied and modeled numerous battles of the Civil War for various wargames. I'm happy to academically debate what the war was all about. But not here, and not in Deadlands.

So what are my politics and biases? I'm a fiscal conservative, social liberal...though there are LOTS of exceptions and nuances in between, like most everyone else. My main mottos are do unto others as you'd have them do unto you, and live and let live. I served in the US Army, went to Virginia Tech, and now live in the beautiful deserts of Arizona where I can be a little closer to the West I love so much.

Now back to the game stuff.

I made the decision to remove the CSA from Deadlands about two years ago as we were creating Deadlands Dark Ages, and I knew the "Morgana Effect" would be the story reason for this revision and other, lesser continuity issues. The fall of the CSA after the Battle of Washington (1871 in DL lore) is just the thing people are going to get riled about.

I talked over the idea with the core team way back then. They're northerners and southerners and Europeans and Westerners and conservatives and liberals of many backgrounds and perspectives...and we all agreed it was the way to go for a great number of reasons.

I'll tell you why below, but first, we knew there was no business "win" here. The folks who accused of us being Southern apologists for the last twenty years would continue doing so. Those who had defended the existence of the South as a far more complex story decision (and thanks, btw!) would say we sold out, were pandering, and leave.

We knew we would absolutely lose some fans and sales over this decision. So to say we're pandering for sales is incorrect. Again, we're going to *lose* sales. Certainly for a while.

I acknowledge that and am okay with it. I accept the fallout today's announcement will cause and am completely okay with it. Nothing said here will change our opinions or hurt my feelings.

But Deadlands is mine, friends. I get to make those decisions and decide what's in the sandbox.

I *love* the enthusiasm people have for the Weird West. I love what they add to it. I love how they dress up for it at LARPs (and have even taken over entire *towns* for them--check out our Russian partners at Studio101!), play the RPG, get tattoos of Hangin' Judges and Jackalopes, and even get married in Deadlands garb. It's amazing and awesome and humbling.

But it's still mine. And until I die, it will stay that way. I know what it is and where I want it to go.

I also get to see the big picture among communities all over the world. People love Deadlands in Spain and Italy and Russia and Poland and Brazil and Germany and Hungary and China and SO many other places.

So why make the change?

Because first, we don't need it for the grand story we want to tell. When I created the whole thing twenty years ago the existence of the CSA was War's main strategy for sewing chaos and division in the US (War is one of the Reckoners in DL for those who don't know). It was a hook to create the world of Deadlands that was relatively empty then, and certainly unladen with the 25 years of history and dozens of sourcebooks you know now.

Since that decision, the role of ghost rock, the various factions, the Cult of Lost Angels, the Rail Barons, the secret organizations, and all the other wonderful and cool stuff our core team and dozens of freelancers have added to the world since were FAR more interesting and colorful.

But there is a real world "cost" to keeping the CSA, and it's one I don't have to pay...someone else does. And I don't want that. Having characters loyal to the CSA...not just "Southerners" but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason... can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Especially those of African-American descent. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about.

I run Deadlands for people *all around the world*. I play with all ethnicities, genders, orientations, cultures, religions, and political outlooks. I've literally run thousands of games for probably about ten thousand people over the last 25 years, and met and talked to FAR more than that in various talks, panels, guest appearances, signings, etc. And I *love* meeting you all. I *love* learning about our similarities AND differences and then having a drink and throwing some dice and shooting zombies with you. :)

We just want to tell wild tales of the Weird West. Yes, we'll make an occasional statement...I slip my views into everything I write, intentionally or otherwise...who doesn't? But our *main goal* is for people to spend time with friends they'll probably know for *decades* and leave game night feeling like a hero. Hopefully with a big goofy smile on their face as they remember that weird encounter with the jackalope or tumblebleed or the called shot that rolled 34 damage. :)

***

So what about the story and history of Deadlands? How will Noir and Hell on Earth work? We answered those questions internally a long time ago, and think the post-Morgana Effect stories we're going to tell are FAR cooler and more interesting. :)

And honestly, I'll tell you a secret. it really doesn't change much even in the Weird West. We just haven't done much with the Civil War or the CSA outside of the "Dead Presidents" adventure or as occasional background.

Everything up to the Battle of Washington stays the same. The Agents and Texas Rangers still fight with each other over the best way to handle the Reckoning. The Great Rail Wars still happen.

We described the USA / CSA a bit more in Back East North and South in Deadlands Classic, but the "north and south" still exist. The South just isn't its own government anymore. Tensions still exist. Loyalists from both sides still skirmish, especially in the border states. Fort 51 and Roswell compete with each other just like the Agents and Rangers. Honestly, it's just not that big a deal.

(The Last War in Hell on Earth gets a little weirder but a LOT more fun and Deadlands-y! :) )

***

Maybe you'll agree. Maybe you won't. That's okay. We're doing it anyway. We hope you'll join us, of course. Every creator wants to see their works loved and appreciated and our team is no different...but ultimately, and I'll just speak for myself here, I create the worlds I want. I know who I am and what I stand for, and can say the same for our team...even those with vastly different viewpoints. Meet me in person in a casual environment and I might even have a political conversation with you if you seem genuinely interested in a conversation. Just be warned. You might like what I have to say...you might not. But if I say anything, it'll be honest.

And by the way, I expected some to say I was pandering in SWADE with Red and Gabe. Think that if you want, but they're just who I saw in my head the entire time I was writing it. That's what I did and I'm happy with it. I hope you are too, but it's okay if you aren't. That's your business. I know my mind and my heart and I'm sure you know yours.

***

Thanks for reading this long post. We knew this would be a controversial topic, and that's okay. But we aren't going to answer to it anymore. I might point people to this post, I might just delete new threads if the tone is going to derail and poison the community we've ALL worked so hard to build. Fair warning.

If you want to talk about or critique the decision further, feel free to do so elsewhere. Our decision was made long ago and we're moving on. *Nothing* will change that opinion.

Our efforts are focused on making the best game and worlds we know how to make. If they don't fit your tastes, that's okay. We're all lucky to live in a golden age of gaming right now where there are *hundreds* of other choices for you to patronize. I'm *very* happy to see any of my friends at other companies get your business and for *you* to find whatever game / company / system makes YOU and your friends happy. Truly. :)

Thanks again for reading, friends, whether you like what I had to say or not. We'll see (most of) you on Banshee, where you can find out just what happened to the Reckoners after the Unity adventure. We think it's pretty cool, and hope you think so too!
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Armchair Gamer

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I'm not a Deadlands fan, but I am a Savage Worlds fan, so I saw this. The bit about "[t]he folks who accused of us being Southern apologists for the last twenty years would continue doing so" suggests, taking it at face value, that this isn't an 'appease the activists' move, but "this is something that isn't really essential to the setting as it has evolved, and has gotten in the way of a lot of people's enjoyment, so why not get rid of it?"

GeekyBugle

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"The stories we want to tell"...

Is it a novel or an RPG?

Not a fan but, if I were I might not like the change and either not buy the new products or undo their retconing.

The author/publisher/owner has the right to do what they want, but on the other hand the consumer has the right to not buy, after all they aren't entitled to our money.
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Chubby

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But it's still mine. And until I die, it will stay that way. I know what it is and where I want it to go.

No.  Once it is out, it belongs to the world.  They can change the future books.  However, they can't forbid people from sticking to the old version (see what happened with Cyberpunk 2020 in the third edition and how people just kept playing the old version).  And I am sticking to the old version.

RandyB

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Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1104593
I'm not a Deadlands fan, but I am a Savage Worlds fan, so I saw this. The bit about "[t]he folks who accused of us being Southern apologists for the last twenty years would continue doing so" suggests, taking it at face value, that this isn't an 'appease the activists' move, but "this is something that isn't really essential to the setting as it has evolved, and has gotten in the way of a lot of people's enjoyment, so why not get rid of it?"

Then why not do something radical and have the CSA win the war? Surely a historian with those credentials understands that the CSA would leave the USA to govern itself while the CSA did the same.

Because the goal is to get rid of the CSA, period, all protestations notwithstanding.

Stephen Tannhauser

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Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1104593
The bit about "[t]he folks who accused of us being Southern apologists for the last twenty years would continue doing so" suggests, taking it at face value, that this isn't an "appease the activists" move, but "this is something that isn't really essential to the setting as it has evolved, and has gotten in the way of a lot of people's enjoyment, so why not get rid of it?"

A younger and more naive me would have agreed. I simply no longer believe that the people who appoint themselves activists for things like this are actually outnumbered by the ostensible "oppressed" people for whom they claim to speak. Exactly how many people, in hard numbers here, are we talking?

People who don't find the Confederacy an enjoyable element to include in their own games have always been free to do that. People who object to the basic element of the Confederacy not yet being defeated in the Deadlands setting strike me as, by definition, being the people who weren't playing the game to begin with, so the contention that it's "getting in the way of their enjoyment" seems like a category error. Likewise, if the owner is going to such effort to convince people that the setting really won't be that much different in practice, then by definition all he's really changing is exactly the kind of formal label/designation that in my experience activists care far more about than participants anyway. And if he really doesn't care how people react and isn't going to change what he's doing, then why bother with this kind of apologia at all? The designer doth protest too much, methinks.

In itself it's all academic to me as I never played Deadlands to begin with (ironically, my complaints were always theological rather than sociopolitical -- I never liked that magic always involved conjuring spirits, with the strong implication that even the Blessed were doing this and simply deceiving themselves about the nature of what they were doing). But those who've read Havel's essay "The Power of the Powerless" will know what I mean when I say this looks far too much like just another greengrocer's sign to me.
Better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt. -- Mark Twain

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Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser;1104598
A younger and more naive me would have agreed.

 But those who've read Havel's essay "The Power of the Powerless" will know what I mean when I say this looks far too much like just another greengrocer's sign to me.

   I understand the reference and the concern, and I share it to some degree despite no real interest in Deadlands and no sympathy for the Confederacy. But again, the 'we're probably going to lose sales on this' attitude of Shane's statement felt like dismissal of the noisy part of the crowd, although I may very well be naïve.

   Maybe I should follow my own advice and stick with dead or practically dead games that don't get dragged into such matters. :)

Brendan

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As a non-Deadlands player ( looked interesting, but never got around to it ), I don't really have a dog in this fight, but a couple of points stand out here.

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I'll tell you why below, but first, we knew there was no business "win" here. The folks who accused of us being Southern apologists for the last twenty years would continue doing so. Those who had defended the existence of the South as a far more complex story decision (and thanks, btw!) would say we sold out, were pandering, and leave.

We knew we would absolutely lose some fans and sales over this decision. So to say we're pandering for sales is incorrect.

And then...

Quote
But there is a real world "cost" to keeping the CSA, and it's one I don't have to pay...someone else does. And I don't want that. Having characters loyal to the CSA...not just "Southerners" but actual loyalists to the cause, even if anti-slavery but loyal for some reason... can be *incredibly* uncomfortable for others at the table. Especially those of African-American descent. Imagine the GM having to roleplay those voices. That's not fun. That's not what our game's about. It's not what we *want* our game to be about.


So it's not about "pandering" but it actually is about pandering. There are several definitions of "pander" but the one most relevant reads:

pan·der·er.
a person who caters to or profits from the weaknesses or vices of others.

So its pandering to weakness.   What's next, should the Coalition be removed from Rifts because Nazis?  Why don't we all just play (*hruph) Blue Rose?  


(* sorry, I threw up in my mouth a little)

rgrove0172

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Who cares? I run deadlands and tweak the hell out if thecsetting. I'll ignore this liberal sentimentality and tweak the CSA right back where it belongs, a villainous spot in the campaign.

Chris24601

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Quote from: Brendan;1104602
So its pandering to weakness.   What's next, should the Coalition be removed from Rifts because Nazis?  Why don't we all just play (*hruph) Blue Rose?
It's kinda akin to saying you can't include Nazis in a game called "World World II: Allied Special Forces" (side-bar: I would TOTALLY play that game) isn't it?

JRR

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2019, 12:13:33 PM »
Quote from: Chris24601;1104606
It's kinda akin to saying you can't include Nazis in a game called "World World II: Allied Special Forces" (side-bar: I would TOTALLY play that game) isn't it?

This.  Plus I don't give money to cunts.

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2019, 12:16:04 PM »
Hrrrm? Lovely. This is a prime example of real world politics getting in the way of, and diminishing the value of roleplaying, and RPGs in general. While we are sitting here at the poker table I'll see your raise, and up the ante by $10.

Shane made a deliberate decision to include a successful CSA in the Deadlands setting originally, and did so because it was in fact controversial and was a draw for players from the South where they could imagine and partake a world where what they believe in, and value remained. For the same reason that he chose to originally include that, I chose not to buy Deadlands. I remember visiting them at their booth at GenCon back in 2000-2001 just after their second edition release and shaking my head wondering where they would ever find enough support to succeed with a game that defended Slavery, and a successful South. Succeed they did though, and now that it is a success, he is turning his back on his original fans (note: not me though, because I never was a fan), and ditching them. So, bad move economically in the short term, but good move politically because dumping them fans will open up a much larger market of newer younger gamers with politically correct views.

My choice for Western gaming turned out to be Aces & Eights, which supports an alternative history where the North and the South went to war early, and the war ended in a draw. In Aces & Eights at the beginning of the campaign the Confederate states exist, but without Texas which is an Independent Republic, and an uneasy truce is in effect, and peace negotiations are underway between the North and the South. In real life, the Union won and the confederacy collapsed, but not nearly as quickly as people perceive, ...for example, Texas was Confederate and didn't actually rejoin the Union until 1909. The Union pretty much packed up and went home after the war, except for a wave of settlers known as carpetbaggers who moved south and set up shop in the vacuum that was the former Confederate states.

But here's a thing, even though the slaves were free in the South and for a time enjoyed their newfound freedoms, with a former slave actually becoming the Lieutenant Governor of Louisiana in 1868, Louisiana enjoyed having two more black governors until of course, the carpetbaggers from the North and the Southern Democrats together slowly introduced new laws into the former Southern States that promoted segregation and divided the population into two classes, master and servant, landowner and sharecropper, People who maintained all of their rights, and people who had very limited rights. This would progressively get worse until the 1920's and 1930's when the Klu Klux Clan (A Northen political organization founded in Indiana by the way) would openly terrorize people of color in the North, South, and West as well. This was only partially corrected after WWII and especially during the 1960's when the civil rights movement threatened to destabilize the entire Federal government, and the Fed had to step in to reiterate and fully support Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation.  

I'm glad Shane has grown in Wisdom and will no longer promote advocating for slavery in his games over other forms of governing. I'm sad though because he is reducing the places in the RPG world where one can experiment in a sandbox, and see actual results of implementing policies that for example promote racism in particular and slavery in general. RPGs are supposed to be a place where one can explore the finer details of ideologies and concepts, in order to better understand the implications of the concepts in practice, as well as to come up with better solutions for the future.

On a side note, I'm also Ill at ease with this current politically correct environment that is putting pressure on people to erase history, with them pulling down and removing statues across the South of famous civil war generals (who were tremendously great leaders, by the way) as well as Southern political leaders that promoted slavery because they are uncomfortable and believe having such statues in prominent places sends the wrong message to the public. If these politically correct but absolutely retarded  liberals ultimately succeed in this goal of whitewashing history, there will be no evidence remaining that there was a problem with slavery in the first place. Something the southern apologists and pro-slavery people would like very much, I'm sure.

Finally, the actual politically correct solution would be to leave the existing monuments in place, and just put up even more statues and monuments in prominent places of more progressive southern leaders that promoted liberty, justice, and freedom for all, like for example a statue of Oscar Dunn, who was a former slave, and who became a Union Admiral by first stealing a Confederate warship, enlisting in the United States Navy, then using it as a flagship to capture or sink other Confederate warships, as well as to capture Confederate merchant ships. Then after the war, he became the First Lieutenant Governor of Louisiana.

Also, the politically correct liberals that are running around the south and are busy tearing down statues and defacing monuments are demonstrating that even though they won the war, and freedom for their peoples, they are not yet healed and united as a people. Is it that they can only truly feel free if they are allowed to continue hating on others, and openly demonstrating their hostility? This nation divided cannot stand, and yet, ...why are they are still divided and not taking their rightful place as leaders, but insist instead on being rebels and promoting unlawful and damaging actions to existing property, showing a disrespect for history, and inciting themselves and others to resort to violence. Lo, behold... the slave is now the master, see how he wields the whip!  In doing so, ...even though he is now free,and can throw away the whip entirely, he chooses not to. Is he any better than his former master?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 12:29:48 PM by GameDaddy »
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Stephen Tannhauser

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2019, 12:19:43 PM »
Quote from: Chris24601;1104606
It's kinda akin to saying you can't include Nazis in a game called "World World II: Allied Special Forces" (side-bar: I would TOTALLY play that game) isn't it?

To be fair, they're not saying you can't have Nazis in a game about WW2. They're just saying that presenting an alternate history where the Nazi regime is depicted as still being around after 1945 as a viable government would constitute an intolerable apologia for the Nazis' platform.

No, I don't get it either.
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Ratman_tf

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2019, 12:32:39 PM »
Thank God. When I played Deadlands I had an uncontrollable urge to go enslave some black people. [/s]

Seriously, the highlights have been covered. He went out on a limb with an RPG setting that included a "what if?" sucessful Southern Confederacy, and now wants to retcon it for PC sensibilities. Fuck him and fuck his game. I prefer the "old" Deadlands anyway, so I'm not his target audience.
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Ratman_tf

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Deadlands is retconning the Confederacy so they lost the war and aren't playable.
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2019, 12:39:56 PM »
Quote from: GameDaddy;1104610
On a side note, I'm also Ill at ease with this current politically correct environment that is putting pressure on people to erase history, with them pulling down and removing statues across the South of famous civil war generals (who were tremendously great leaders, by the way) as well as Southern political leaders that promoted slavery because they are uncomfortable and believe having such statues in prominent places sends the wrong message to the public. If these politically correct but absolutely retarded  liberals ultimately succeed in this goal of whitewashing history, there will be no evidence remaining that there was a problem with slavery in the first place. Something the southern apologists and pro-slavery people would like very much, I'm sure.

I'm reminded of Tolkien's abandoned sequel, where 100 years after Aragorn's death, people grew up not knowing the import of the War of the Ring, and boys played at being orcs because it was "cool".
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung