Multiple "Core" products?

TristramEvans · September 19, 2012, 09:27:34 PM

Quote from: Technomancer;583762That's like saying a WW2 game is incomplete without stats for every ship, tank, airplane, and firearm. I suppose that's a valid point of view, if not very reasonable in my view.

Not every one, but more than 1 or 2, yes. I also would say that a WW@ game is incomplete if it has no rules for mass combat (I'm looking at you Godlike).

Darran · September 20, 2012, 09:16:26 AM

Chaosium's RuneQuest II was always a three-book game.
You needed the core rules, Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror to play.

RPGPundit · September 21, 2012, 11:54:00 AM

Quote from: TristramEvans;583077off the top of my head...

Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea

...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).

I'm talking about games that are being sold today (2012); are there any that require some kind of combo of books (ie. PHB + DMG + MM) to be playable at all, that are doing well, other than D&D?

So for example, from your answers many are irrelevant. WFRP 3e is a single product. Star Wars has no current edition. Rolemaster is basically dead. I don't remember if GURPS 4e absolutely needs both player and GM books to be run (I know it had both)? nWoD is a single standalone book. Is 7th sea in print?!

You're right, of course, about Pathfinder.

RPGPundit

jibbajibba · September 21, 2012, 12:02:33 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;584285I'm talking about games that are being sold today (2012); are there any that require some kind of combo of books (ie. PHB + DMG + MM) to be playable at all, that are doing well, other than D&D?

So for example, from your answers many are irrelevant. WFRP 3e is a single product. Star Wars has no current edition. Rolemaster is basically dead. I don't remember if GURPS 4e absolutely needs both player and GM books to be run (I know it had both)? nWoD is a single standalone book. Is 7th sea in print?!

You're right, of course, about Pathfinder.

RPGPundit

The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.

RPGPundit · September 22, 2012, 02:18:56 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;584288The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.

LOL. Please, there is no plan to release Arrows of Indra as anything other than a single book. There was no "implied question" to this thread. Maybe there was an "implied statement", which would be that I don't believe that a game can be released these days with more than one "core product" requirement, excepting D&D and Pathfinder.

RPGPundit

Bedrockbrendan · September 22, 2012, 02:28:06 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;584288The answer to the implied question is Arrows of Indra should probably be a single book and not be split into 3.
I think you could get away with a Player book and a GM book that combined monsters and GM stuff but you would need to put the whole thing in a box which increases production costs a great deal.

We always release our products as a single book (though we are not averse to releasing monster, rules and setting supplements to products down the road). For Arrows of Indra we have no plans for the three book approach and the topic has never been raised by Pundit or anyone else involved. The only thing different about it from previous releases,in terms of format, is its size. Though our other books usually reach about 110 pages, Arrows of Indra will be closer to 190 to accomodate its content.

In future we may release other 190 page book but have no plans to offer games split into three volumes or make use of boxed sets (for our purposes boxed sets are simpy impractical).

TristramEvans · September 22, 2012, 07:56:39 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;584522LOL. Please, there is no plan to release Arrows of Indra as anything other than a single book. There was no "implied question" to this thread. Maybe there was an "implied statement", which would be that I don't believe that a game can be released these days with more than one "core product" requirement, excepting D&D and Pathfinder.

RPGPundit

It;'s certainly not a format I like nor appreciate. But then, single volume RPgs have been getting more and more lax as to what is considered "complete" as the supplement-mill print strategy is pretty much implied, to the point that I don't think the world will see anything like WHFRP 1E again in my lifetime.

For as much love as it recieves on the forums, WHFRP 2e was a slap in the face to fans.

RPGPundit · September 23, 2012, 04:19:11 PM

Quote from: TristramEvans;584604It;'s certainly not a format I like nor appreciate. But then, single volume RPgs have been getting more and more lax as to what is considered "complete" as the supplement-mill print strategy is pretty much implied, to the point that I don't think the world will see anything like WHFRP 1E again in my lifetime.

For as much love as it recieves on the forums, WHFRP 2e was a slap in the face to fans.

What do you think was missing from WFRP 2e in the corebook?

As for me, every single game I've written is very much complete in one book.

RPGPundit

Novastar · September 23, 2012, 06:50:12 PM

Quote from: Skywalker;583371I think argument for Star Wars WEG1e (or at least as I have seen it) is that there isn't much examples of things in the book. You get four ships IIRC and a handful of antagonists.

There was actually six ships; an X-wing, a TIE Fighter, a stock Freighter, the Millenium Falcon, an Imperial Customs Frigate, and a Y-wing in the back adventure.

Quote from: mcbobbo;583439Contrast that to 2e RE and I think you might begin to understand the criticism.

A Star Wars game isn't just any old 'make it up as you go' science fiction thing. There are preconceived notions about a lot of the characters, vehicles, etc, which are inherent to the setting. If you're running the game for casual fans, okay fine. If you're running the game for people who know as much or more than you do about the setting, having "that's what the book says" to fall back on is a HUGE time saver.

In '87, there was a lot less of an "equipment checklist" than there is in 2012.

The main complaint I would have had, is there was no ground vehicles in the original main book; no speeder bikes, snowspeeders, cloud cars, or Imperial Walkers.

I always found the Rebellion and Imperial sourcebooks more useful than a lot of the other books, because they were equipment splatbooks, with better organiztion and more gear than the main sourcebook. But neither are "core" books in my mind.

RI2 · September 24, 2012, 11:33:01 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit;583055Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?

RPGPundit

When I designed Shadow, Sword & Spell, I did not go with multiple books. Yes, I have Basic and Expert, but for me, Basic is all you really need to run the game. Expert just gives you more options to add on to the game.

I think the days of requiring a gamer or GM to have multiple books to play a game are over.

Richard

RI2 · September 24, 2012, 11:34:20 AM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;584528We always release our products as a single book (though we are not averse to releasing monster, rules and setting supplements to products down the road). For Arrows of Indra we have no plans for the three book approach and the topic has never been raised by Pundit or anyone else involved. The only thing different about it from previous releases,in terms of format, is its size. Though our other books usually reach about 110 pages, Arrows of Indra will be closer to 190 to accomodate its content.

In future we may release other 190 page book but have no plans to offer games split into three volumes or make use of boxed sets (for our purposes boxed sets are simpy impractical).

Are we married too 190 pages? I do not trust you page counting abilities. ;-)

Richard

Bedrockbrendan · September 24, 2012, 11:35:25 AM

Quote from: RI2;585046Are we married too 190 pages? I do not trust you page counting abilities. ;-)

Richard

No, it is a rough figure at this stage

RI2 · September 24, 2012, 12:03:08 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;585047No, it is a rough figure at this stage

Good, because SoG nearly killed my eyes.

Richard

RPGPundit · September 25, 2012, 06:37:52 PM

Quote from: RI2;585045When I designed Shadow, Sword & Spell, I did not go with multiple books. Yes, I have Basic and Expert, but for me, Basic is all you really need to run the game. Expert just gives you more options to add on to the game.

I think the days of requiring a gamer or GM to have multiple books to play a game are over.

Richard

Is your basic set something that allows ongoing play for an entire campaign's worth, or is it something like "good for levels 1-2, then you need expert"?

RPGPundit

Ben Rogers · September 25, 2012, 11:59:47 PM

We're about to release Sixcess Core. It's a single book, multi-genre, universal, D6-based, dice-pool system.

Setting books will be released but are only needed if you want to play in that particular setting.

There is no "default" genre or setting in Sixcess Core. You can build whatever world you want and have at it.

We're about to kickstart Sixcess Core (first week of October 2012). There's a thread elsewhere asking questions on how to make our kickstarter better.