Seriously though, this is not really newsworthy news. Everything I wanted out of the VTT I can get, and have been getting, elsewhere. At this point, it's as if Walmart suddenly announced they were not going to make cars.

Quote from: daniel_ream;558877I'm always bemused when people who don't actually work in or have any experience with the software industry assume that any of this stuff is easy (or in some cases, possible).

As we say around here at the daily scrums, if it's so easy you should be able to knock out a functioning proof-of-concept in a day or so.  Let us know when you're done.

The ease and/or difficulty of production isn't the issue. The issue is constant over-promising and under-delivering. Making good software in a timely fashion isn't easy and so shouldn't be undertaken carelessly.

Leave software production to the pros. If that takes too much money & effort then just stick to tabletop products instead of half-assing something.

This is a surprise?  Every single piece of software produced by WOTC has been crap.  Hell, they have yet to make a better product than the old Core Rules cd and that came out in what, 1996?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;558893

Quote from: daniel_ream;558877I'm always bemused when people who don't actually work in or have any experience with the software industry assume that any of this stuff is easy (or in some cases, possible).

As we say around here at the daily scrums, if it's so easy you should be able to knock out a functioning proof-of-concept in a day or so.  Let us know when you're done.

The ease and/or difficulty of production isn't the issue. The issue is constant over-promising and under-delivering. Making good software in a timely fashion isn't easy and so shouldn't be undertaken carelessly.

Leave software production to the pros. If that takes too much money & effort then just stick to tabletop products instead of half-assing something.

Over-promise and under-deliver is part of the problem, but Daniel's cute comment misses the point entirely. It's not simply that WotC has messed up something that might, in actual fact, be nigh impossible - it's that they've messed up something that multiple other amateurs and small startups have already created working versions of. That person you told to go knock out a proof-of-concept? They came back to you with it ages ago...now why can't you deliver?

Quote from: Bobloblah;558898Over-promise and under-deliver is part of the problem, but Daniel's cute comment misses the point entirely. It's not simply that WotC has messed up something that might, in actual fact, be nigh impossible - it's that they've messed up something that multiple other amateurs and small startups have already created working versions of. That person you told to go knock out a proof-of-concept? They came back to you with it ages ago...now why can't you deliver?

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. "It's really hard," doesn't really apply here.

However, I will give WotC one minor benefit of the doubt.

Sure there have been some good VTT's out there, but the ones that have the game engine code baked in are rare. Fantasy Grounds is about the best for a d20 game.  All the others either are bare-bones communication sharing tools (really not much different then a slightly upgunned WebEx) or have to be programmed using a lot of XML definition files to get any game functionality into the interface itself.

A big strike against them though is that they presumably were coding for one game, 4e, which should be the easiest thing to do.  The other VTTs are trying to be open and support multiple games, which increases the complexity.

Also people give MapTools, Battleground et al. a break because it's free, so they ignore the fact that it is "under construction".  WotC can't do that.

Personally I suspect the problem was a conflict between the people who wanted a boardgame with 3d graphics and the ones who wanted a proto-MMORPG.

Quote from: The Butcher;558403Say what you will about 4e, VTT is the biggest fuckup in the history of D&D as a brand, and in the history of WotC as a gaming company.

Hope they learn something from this before it's too late.

Yeah, and a real surprise considering all the other successful software ventures they have pursued.  

Quote from: JRR;558896This is a surprise?  Every single piece of software produced by WOTC has been crap.  Hell, they have yet to make a better product than the old Core Rules cd and that came out in what, 1996?

That was pretty fucking awesome.  I still have mine floating around somewhere, but I like the Dragon Archive more.  For the time, the interface was pretty damn good on that.

Quote from: CRKrueger;559159However, I will give WotC one minor benefit of the doubt.

Sure there have been some good VTT's out there, but the ones that have the game engine code baked in are rare. Fantasy Grounds is about the best for a d20 game.  All the others either are bare-bones communication sharing tools (really not much different then a slightly upgunned WebEx) or have to be programmed using a lot of XML definition files to get any game functionality into the interface itself.

A big strike against them though is that they presumably were coding for one game, 4e, which should be the easiest thing to do.  The other VTTs are trying to be open and support multiple games, which increases the complexity.

Also people give MapTools, Battleground et al. a break because it's free, so they ignore the fact that it is "under construction".  WotC can't do that.

Personally I suspect the problem was a conflict between the people who wanted a boardgame with 3d graphics and the ones who wanted a proto-MMORPG.

I've seen screenshot of a beholder getting fire-balled in the (1st pass at a 4e) 3D VTT... it was basically a 3d boardgame.. but it was awesome for the period it was being developed in.


I'm tempted to make my own with UDK (but, as mentioned it wouldn't have any specific rules functionality).

Quote from: Bobloblah;558898That person you told to go knock out a proof-of-concept? They came back to you with it ages ago...now why can't you deliver?

Good job! Now, can you scale it beyond a hundred simultaneous users and build in some security and a reduced attack surface while you're at it?  And make it work on every browser running on every version of Windows with every possible combination of "Internet security" software, antivirus and the built-in Windows firewall?  And make sure it tolerates dropped connections gracefully, and so on, and so on...saying "those amateurs kicked out something that sort of works, now why can't you" is like asking Orange Julius why they can't open a location on your front lawn because the kid down the street's been running a lemonade stand all summer.

Making good, reliable software is hard, and WotC's track record in this area is about average.  You should see some of the construction estimating software I've had to work with, and that's from professional software development companies working in a specific niche with well-defined requirements.

Oh, and over-promising and under-delivering is the norm in this industry.  Look, be angry that WoTC didn't give you your shiny toy all you like, but realize that they're far from unique as far as successfully producing software goes.

Quote from: daniel_ream;559181Making good, reliable software is hard, and WotC's track record in this area is about average.  You should see some of the construction estimating software I've had to work with, and that's from professional software development companies working in a specific niche with well-defined requirements.

I shit you not, the medical records software company I worked for was still storing the data as a blob in MSSQL.  In 2008.  Using a Java interface.  And this was the industry leader.

Quote from: StormBringer;559185I shit you not, the medical records software company I worked for was still storing the data as a blob in MSSQL.  In 2008.  Using a Java interface.  And this was the industry leader.

I've a good idea which software company you're talking about, and the medical software industry makes the IRS look like NASA.

Quote from: daniel_ream;559181Good job! Now, can you scale it beyond a hundred simultaneous users and build in some security and a reduced attack surface while you're at it?  And make it work on every browser running on every version of Windows with every possible combination of "Internet security" software, antivirus and the built-in Windows firewall?  And make sure it tolerates dropped connections gracefully, and so on, and so on...saying "those amateurs kicked out something that sort of works, now why can't you" is like asking Orange Julius why they can't open a location on your front lawn because the kid down the street's been running a lemonade stand all summer.

Making good, reliable software is hard, and WotC's track record in this area is about average.  You should see some of the construction estimating software I've had to work with, and that's from professional software development companies working in a specific niche with well-defined requirements.

Oh, and over-promising and under-delivering is the norm in this industry.  Look, be angry that WoTC didn't give you your shiny toy all you like, but realize that they're far from unique as far as successfully producing software goes.

I'll certainly give you the over-promise under-deliver being endemic; I'm currently working for one of the world's larger software companies, and we've certainly been guilty of it. Having said that, you are still over-stating the difficulties and under-playing the fully working versions of these products on the market. I have used several of them, and they simply aren't the mickey-mouse toys you're equating them to with your lemonade stand comment. There is a vast gulf between "okay, the software doesn't do everything yet" and "screw it, we're not releasing anything."

Quote from: StormBringer;559185I shit you not, the medical records software company I worked for was still storing the data as a blob in MSSQL.  In 2008.  Using a Java interface.  And this was the industry leader.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;559191I've a good idea which software company you're talking about, and the medical software industry makes the IRS look like NASA.

The enterprise software space has a lot of software that would make the average consumer either choke, or believe they just entered a timewarp to the 80s. I'm not sure comparing with consumer software is terribly relevant, as the considerations, particularly in terms of reliability, are very different.

Quote from: StormBringer;559185I shit you not, the medical records software company I worked for was still storing the data as a blob in MSSQL.  In 2008.  Using a Java interface.  And this was the industry leader.

When you have fucked around with MeditechOS running Data General AVIION 9500s, get back to me.

MSSQL...luxury!