Quote from: Haffrung;751050Why would WotC expect to sell Starter Sets to people who can't seem to comprehend that they're not the audience for the product?

...Because ...Just maybe ...we are the audience for the product.

There are more than five hundred youngsters between the ages of 6-18 I see every week. They come into my computer lab looking for the newest, shiniest, most awesome games in the world to play!!!.

I'd really like to introduce D&D as a game worthy of their time, but simply won't do it so long as WOTC is releasing gimped versions of the starter kit.

I did Introduce them to Ogre this last year, with one of the Largest Box Boargames ever made and let the kids slug it out. In just a few weeks, SJG will be releasing the Ogre microgame again, and I expect they'll easily garner a couple dozen sales from my kids alone for that. P.S. I get requests every week to run Ogre boardgame battles! This in a computer lab.

You're not answering my main point here, which is that I am the one who would think about offering such a boxed set to someone who has not played before. I am the one who introduces the game to these newbies/casual people you are talking about. Therefore, if you don't have me on board confident that this box actually does its job as an entry product to the hobby, you're losing all these sales to these people who I might have pointed this product to in the first place.

As soon as you're thinking about this as a "us and them" issue, "grognards versus noob" or anything of the sort, my contention is that you're losing sight of the fact that the hobby propagates from the inside out. The vast majority of people don't find out about tabletop RPing by picking up a game at a store or through a website: they're introduced to the games by their friends, relatives, neighbours, people who already know the game. If these people hand over a copy of Moldvay to their kids to teach them the basics of the game instead of the new D&D starter set, WotC lost that sale.

This is as simple as that.

Quote from: Bobloblah;751059I want it to live up to the current standard set by D&D's biggest competitor, Paizo. You remember them, the one's currently eating WotC's lunch? In spite of no longer having any desire, whatsoever, to play or DM Pathfinder ever again, I still recommend and gift the Pathfinder Beginner Box because it is such a good introduction to D&D-type RPGs.

By all accounts, the Pathfinder Beginner Box is an excellent product. But I'll reserve judgement on how the D&D Starter Set stacks up until I find out how character generation will be accessible.

Also, let's not forget the Pathfinder Beginner Box is almost twice as expensive as the D&D Starter Set. $20 is a incredibly cheap for any kind of game. The Pathfinder Adventure Card game, which is just a bunch of cheap-looking cards in a box, runs $60. Each expansion (a smaller number of cheap cards in a box) goes for $20.

But yet again, WotC is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they charged $35 for the Starter Set there would be all kinds of people on these forums scoffing that there's no way they would spend that much money on a game that only takes you to level 5, so WotC can go fuck themselves.

Quote from: Haffrung;751072The only people complaining as bitterly about Next as the grognard here, and citing uniting the fanbase with resentment, are the 4E fanatics on TBP. I don't believe uniting the fanbase is possible, or even necessary for D&D Next to be a success. But it does need to find a middle ground between the editions warriors, with the grognards and 4E system-wonks at the ends of the spectrum. The grognards will piss and moan endlessly about anything the least bit more complex or different from Moldvay basic, or formatted differently from the beloved books of their youth. The 4E system-wonks will call any mechanic that wasn't re-worked mathematically from the ground up to achieve sublime balance more evidence of a broken system and that Next is nothing more than an exercise in nostalgia for grognards.

I agree with a lot of this, but, as has already been pointed out to you, it's not necessary to go back to the 80s. The Pathfinder Beginner Box is a modern example that receives nothing but praise. I'm willing to wait see on the Starter Set, as it looks like there are still a number of workable angles this could take, but WotC has certainly developed a reputation through the last edition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Hopefully this doesn't end up that way.

Quote from: Benoist;751077You're not answering my main point here, which is that I am the one who would think about offering such a boxed set to someone who has not played before. I am the one who introduces the game to these newbies/casual people you are talking about. Therefore, if you don't have me on board confident that this box actually does its job as an entry product to the hobby, you're losing all these sales to these people who I might have pointed this product to in the first place.

As soon as you're thinking about this as a "us and them" issue, "grognards versus noob" or anything of the sort, my contention is that you're losing sight of the fact that the hobby propagates from the inside out. The vast majority of people don't find out about tabletop RPing by picking up a game at a store or through a website: they're introduced to the games by their friends, relatives, neighbours, people who already know the game. If these people hand over a copy of Moldvay to their kids to teach them the basics of the game instead of the new D&D starter set, WotC lost that sale.

This is as simple as that.

Quote from: GameDaddy;751076...Because ...Just maybe ...we are the audience for the product.

There are more than five hundred youngsters between the ages of 6-18 I see every week. They come into my computer lab looking for the newest, shiniest, most awesome games in the world to play!!!.

I'd really like to introduce D&D as a game worthy of their time, but simply won't do it so long as WOTC is releasing gimped versions of the starter kit.

And how do you know they'll find a game without character generation in the box totally fucking useless? Maybe most would prefer to run with pre-gens for their first few sessions. Or they'll find a digital character generation tool preferable to dice and a pad of paper. Don't let your own experience as a 12-year-old color what those kids today want or expect.

Quote from: Haffrung;751079By all accounts, the Pathfinder Beginner Box is an excellent product. But I'll reserve judgement on how the D&D Starter Set stacks up until I find out how character generation will be accessible.

I've already said more or less the same: we'll see. But I do think an inability for a new player to "make a guy" out of the box is a mistake.

Quote from: Haffrung;751079Also, let's not forget the Pathfinder Beginner Box is almost twice as expensive as the D&D Starter Set. $20 is a incredibly cheap for any kind of game. The Pathfinder Adventure Card game, which is just a bunch of cheap-looking cards in a box, runs $60. Each expansion (a smaller number of cheap cards in a box) goes for $20.

It also contains a flip mat, diecut counters, and stands (all of which means it's also likely a bigger box). It also doesn't have to economies of scale that a D&D set should have, or the manufacturing connections a Hasbro diviion should be able to leverage.

Quote from: Haffrung;751079But yet again, WotC is in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If they charged $35 for the Starter Set there would be all kinds of people on these forums scoffing that there's no way they would spend that much money on a game that only takes you to level 5, so WotC can go fuck themselves.

The fact that this isn't the case for the Pathfinder Beginner Box puts the lie to this statement. Admittedly, it might be said if this set charged $35 for less.

Quote from: Haffrung;751085And how do you know they'll find a game without character generation in the box totally fucking useless? Maybe most would prefer to run with pre-gens for their first few sessions. Or they'll find a digital character generation tool preferable to dice and a pad of paper. Don't let your own experience as a 12-year-old color what those kids today want or expect.

This. People bemoaning an app might not know any 12-year-olds. Many of the ones I know are attached to phones. An app is certainly not what I'd want to see, but I have to admit it might work out well for WotC in the near term.

Quote from: Haffrung;751085And how do you know they'll find a game without character generation in the box totally fucking useless? Don't let your own experience as a 12-year-old color what those kids today want or expect.

The youngsters might find the game useful, but they won't find it by my hand, because WOTC is omitting what I feel to be (And what has historically been proven to be, financially speaking) a core component of any RPG set.

Chargen.

I'll wager I spend a great deal of time thinking about, and acting on, what kids today want, or expect.

Keep in mind, I'm teaching them to be self-sufficient problem-solving Independent little people that will become awesome big people by being leaders and taking responsibility for their own lives, and for the world around them.

Anything that gets in the way of that is left behind. And that happens to include companies that sell less than the best, in order to achieve more profits.

I expect the best from my youngsters... ...I also expect anyone providing goods or services to deliver the best for them.

Quote from: Haffrung;751085And how do you know they'll find a game without character generation in the box totally fucking useless? Maybe most would prefer to run with pre-gens for their first few sessions. Or they'll find a digital character generation tool preferable to dice and a pad of paper. Don't let your own experience as a 12-year-old color what those kids today want or expect.

It actually doesn't matter, because they will not be the ones buying the entry product for themselves, I will. That's my actual point. And speaking for me, personally, I will never buy a tabletop role playing game that requires a kid to log on to a website, or download an app, or worse yet, get an online subscription to a service, to find out about one of the coolest aspects of the process.

I just won't do it when I have a choice between that, or the Pathfinder intro box, or hunting down older sets on eBay for cheaper with the assurance that they'll actually provide an all-in-one starter to the kids I know are interested in giving RPGs a try on their own.

I can't imagine I'm the only one thinking along those lines. Each person thinking like me here translates in that many sales WotC is not making, which also means these kids, not being given the D&D starter set, will not buy into the other products later.

It's a net loss for WotC, however you choose you wrangle your fingers to tell me just how glued kids are to their phones now. Ever thought that as a parent or uncle or friend to a kid I played with a few times, this is exactly the kind of thing I would not want to hear when considering which tabletop game to offer to them for Christmas? Because that's me, right here.

Quote from: Bobloblah;751088This. People bemoaning an app might not know any 12-year-olds. Many of the ones I know are attached to phones. An app is certainly not what I'd want to see, but I have to admit it might work out well for WotC in the near term.

Yep.  As much as it chagrins me personally, you can't deny the appeal of the digital age to the next generation.  It would be like us bitching that cars started putting radios in as a standard feature.

"Back in my day, we didn't need no stinking radio or electronic gadgets in our cars!"

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751094Yep.  As much as it chagrins me personally, you can't deny the appeal of the digital age to the next generation.  It would be like us bitching that cars started putting radios in as a standard feature.

"Back in my day, we didn't need no stinking radio or electronic gadgets in our cars!"

Up until a year or so ago, my Jeep (RIP) had a cassette player that regularly played cassettes (how else could I listen to Iron Maiden and Motorhead?).  My wife tried to get me to upgrade and I refused:)

My daughter is 6.  Our smart phones hold a mystical attraction for her.  She has a leappad, and we'll let her use the ipad and samsung tablet if she asks (and has earned it), but she'll drop all of those for a chance to play on one of the smart phones.

Quote from: RunningLaser;751102...she'll drop all of those for a chance to play on one of the smart phones.

I never said we should not have apps for the starter set. On the contrary, a chargen app would be awesome. But that would be in addition to having chargen available in the starter set, not instead of.

Quote from: GameDaddy;751104I never said we should not have apps for the starter set. On the contrary, a chargen app would be awesome. But that would be in addition to having chargen available in the starter set, not instead of.

Yes. This.

Quote from: Benoist;751057Well then that's all fine and good, because if I am not the target audience for that product, then (1) neither are my nephews, nieces, and all the kids I'd be the only one to offer a D&D boxed set to, because, lest we forget, the hobby propagates with people like me introducing other people of all ages to role playing games, and I'm personally not willing to offer a product to others that I would believe wouldn't do a good job to actually introduce what's cool about D&D, RPing, creating characters of your own, etc, and (2) the whole thing about uniting the fan base and all that was just bullshit, and what you're saying is basically what we've been told before with 4e - i.e. if what you say is true we're basically fired again as customers, and our only option as "hardcores" is to buy into the multi-pronged three books "hardcore" offering with rules up the wazoo.

"Get on with the times, already, Ford T lover!"

Awesome. Glad we cleared that up. I'll know not the consider the starter set as a gift option for Christmas now.

Nice to see you acting like the old Ben again going completely off the rails about a product unseen that you've been explicitly told has an heretofore unintroduced component.

Just relax and let them explain what they're obviously holding back before completely losing it.

I am all ears!

They have my attention alright. Pray tell. What is this awesome revolutionary thing that makes a starter set complete, without apps, without digital anything, without third party products or whatnot, while not including character gen? Inquiring minds want to know!

Whatever the answer, I'm going to be floored by it, I can tell.