Quote from: Necrozius;750997For all the Luddites out there, the good news is that you can probably just skip the Starter Kit and wait for the core books. I'm willing to bet that all of the proper info is right in there - no internet connection needed! You'll be all set. Until the first errata comes out, of course. Then you'll need print-outs or whatever.

No chargen in dead tree format for the starter means no sale of the whole shebang.

Why the fuck would I give a penny to company that proves that they just don't GET roleplaying games?

I like my electronic conveniences. I use word docs, excel sheets and other widgets to help make cool stuff for my games. Once I'm at the table, I'm done with that stuff. If electronics at the table are essential to being able to play the game then it is no longer a tabletop rpg.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;751002No chargen in dead tree format for the starter means no sale of the whole shebang.[/I]

Well then I guess that I'm not part of the target audience for Starter Kits. That or I just don't understand them. I assumed that they were just for a preview or, well, to give you a taste of the action. If I was to get into this game, I'd wait until the core books came out. I'd want it all at once!

I'm hopefully optimistic myself. Look at basic dnd (B/X, redbox etc) character generation. Roll 3d6 for each stat; pick from the following pregens: fighter, cleric, magic user, thief, dwarf, elf, halfling; buy equipment. That's really all there is to it. I don't see how this differs all that much from what the starter set is offering.

Quote from: CitrusMagic;751011I'm hopefully optimistic myself. Look at basic dnd (B/X, redbox etc) character generation. Roll 3d6 for each stat; pick from the following pregens: fighter, cleric, magic user, thief, dwarf, elf, halfling; buy equipment. That's really all there is to it. I don't see how this differs all that much from what the starter set is offering.

This. This potentially fits with that has been said thus far, as it doesn't really cover actual character generation as it will exist in the rest of the game. Nevertheless, it would allow someone to "make a guy", pick up, and play with something other than a pregen. And I say this as someone who is disappointed at the idea that character generation wouldn't be part of this starter set, as my intention was to buy it both for myself (a $20 preview for myself and my group before committing to $150), and other family members and children of friends that might be interested.

If the "pregens" are actually mostly-done character templates with bits to fill in (and I think it's difficult to deny that B/X PCs were essentially this), I do wonder why they've gone with calling them pregens given that the term has an ugly reputation with existing gamers. I can only assume a combination of the following:

- They reckon that "pregens" is inviting enough to new people who may be cautious about long character generation processes to outweigh the grumps from the grognard crowd.

- They reckon the 3E/4E CharOp crowd would be so up in arms about a character generation system which offered so little mechanical customisation and think that would be worse than the fuss from the Moldvayistas.

Quote from: Necrozius;751004Well then I guess that I'm not part of the target audience for Starter Kits. That or I just don't understand them. I assumed that they were just for a preview or, well, to give you a taste of the action. If I was to get into this game, I'd wait until the core books came out. I'd want it all at once!

Starter sets have an interesting history. The Holmes Blue Book was the first starter set. It was designed to be an Introduction to the White Bookset which retailed for $12 by 1977, although I think White Bookset was originally $10.

The Blue Book originally retailed for $10 as part of a boxed set that included one complete adventure (B1, or B2), ( B3 or B4 came out with the Red Basic set), and gaming dice. You could buy just the blue book directly from TSR via mail order, or some comic book stores stocked just the blue book for $5... in 1978... $6 later on, so it was half-priced, compared to buying the White book set. From the blue book:


Preface:
This book is based on the original work published in 1974 and the three supplementary books published in the two year period after the initial release of DUNGEONS & DRAGONS. It is aimed solely at introducing the reader to the concepts of fantasy role playing and the basic play of this game. To this end, it limits itself to the basics. The rules contained herein allow for only the first three levels of play progression, and instructions for the game referee, the "Dungeon Master" are kept to the minimum necessary to allow him to conduct basic games. This is absolutely necessary becuase the game is completely open-ended, is subject to modification, expansion and interpretation  according to the desires of the group participating, and is in general, not bound by the conventional limitations of other types of games. This work is far more detailed and more easily understood than were the original booklets nonetheless, for with it, and the other basic components of the game, any intelligent and imaginative person can speedily understand and play DUNGEONS & DRAGONS as it was meant to be played. Players who desire to go beyond the basic game are directed to the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS books.

We wish to extend our sincere thanks to the following individuals who helped make this possible through their idea contributions: Brian Blume, Ernie Gygax, Tim Kask, Jeff Key, Rob Kuntz, Terry Kuntz, Alan Lucien, Steve Marsh, Mike Mornard, and Jim Ward.


The first great schism of D&D was already occurring, simultaneously with the initial introduction of the Blue Book Starter Set. People that should have been on this original thank you list included Bob Bledsaw, as well as Dave Arneson, and M.A.R. Barker. M.A.R. Barker already had created a complete fantasy world, Tekumel prior even to the publication of D&D, but simply adopted the D&D rules for his fantasy world. Bob Bledsaw started one of the first D&D companies outside of TSR, and was so successful, he was discouraged from continuing, and Dave Arneson, was, ...well, let's just say there were some contributions that made it into 0D&D that made the game much better, and he was behind that... There were others too... Mike or Ernie might know a few more worthy of mention...

The Blue Book was priced as an incentive to give people a chance to play the game, without having to buy the whole deal. It was actually very attractive, even for veteran players & GM's, ...because it was more concise and well organized than the 0D&D books. The target market, the whole purpose for the starter set, was to introduce completely new players and GMs to the game. It was cost effective, it was affordable, and although limiting player levels, in all other respects, let players try the complete game.

Blue Book immediately proceeded the release of the AD&D Monster Manual, which was a really big expansion of the game in 1978.

* One other comment here... Haven't heard about a few of the other original D&D playtesters... I'd be interested to hear what became of Jeff Key and Alan Lucien, or what they are up to these days.

Quote from: Necrozius;750997For all the Luddites out there, the good news is that you can probably just skip the Starter Kit and wait for the core books. I'm willing to bet that all of the proper info is right in there - no internet connection needed! You'll be all set. Until the first errata comes out, of course. Then you'll need print-outs or whatever.

$20 is a far easier commitment than $150. It is even easier than $50 which seems to be the standard of these high gloss RPG core books nowadays. I do have other games on my shopping list.

Expense is one of the reasons I found no need in L5R 4e. Glossy fabulous as all get out, yet ludicrous current metaplot, and brings nothing all that much better over cheaply available 1e stuff. And not in a price range for an inexpensive gift of possibly disposable entertainment.

D&D is in a position not so very different.

Quote from: Opaopajr;751033$20 is a far easier commitment than $150. It is even easier than $50 which seems to be the standard of these high gloss RPG core books nowadays. I do have other games on my shopping list. .

Fair enough.

To be completely honest, I am more interested in games in which you can get the "full experience" with just one or two books. In my case, pdfs but yeah I get your point.

Quote from: GameDaddyBlue Book history

That was very interesting. I had never heard of this, or at least I didn't know that this was how it worked. Thanks!

I don't like bringing things worth stealing or fragile enough to break when indulging in my hobbies outside of home. So that makes .pdfs just not feasible, especially when I take mass transit. The alternative is printing .pdfs, but at that point used hard copies are cheaper by far than the gas & ink costs alone.

I also buy beat up versions of my more popular games just to have a "travel copy" in case of theft or other forms of travel loss.

Never underestimate the value of cheap & disposable in the market.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;751002No chargen in dead tree format for the starter means no sale of the whole shebang.

Why the fuck would I give a penny to company that proves that they just don't GET roleplaying games?
[/I]

Why would WotC expect to sell Starter Sets to people who can't seem to comprehend that they're not the audience for the product?

What's next? 35 year D&D veterans fuming that the Introduction to Roleplaying chapter isn't as evocative as the one in Mentzner?

Because older males tend to have disposable income for the children, niece/nephews, charities, etc. in their lives?

I know, I know, fired as a customer, not good enough for the community, need new blood the hard way... Well best of luck WotC.

Quote from: Haffrung;751050Why would WotC expect to sell Starter Sets to people who can't seem to comprehend that they're not the audience for the product?

Well then that's all fine and good, because if I am not the target audience for that product, then (1) neither are my nephews, nieces, and all the kids I'd be the only one to offer a D&D boxed set to, because, lest we forget, the hobby propagates with people like me introducing other people of all ages to role playing games, and I'm personally not willing to offer a product to others that I would believe wouldn't do a good job to actually introduce what's cool about D&D, RPing, creating characters of your own, etc, and (2) the whole thing about uniting the fan base and all that was just bullshit, and what you're saying is basically what we've been told before with 4e - i.e. if what you say is true we're basically fired again as customers, and our only option as "hardcores" is to buy into the multi-pronged three books "hardcore" offering with rules up the wazoo.

"Get on with the times, already, Ford T lover!"

Awesome. Glad we cleared that up. I'll know not the consider the starter set as a gift option for Christmas now.

Quote from: Haffrung;751050Why would WotC expect to sell Starter Sets to people who can't seem to comprehend that they're not the audience for the product?

Not the audience, eh? Sooo...no existing player will buy it for someone else? No existing player will buy it to try out Next before committing to the full monty? This certainly isn't the most important thing for this box to accomplish, but why turn off free word of mouth and network effect expansion of your game?

Quote from: Haffrung;751050What's next? 35 year D&D veterans fuming that the Introduction to Roleplaying chapter isn't as evocative as the one in Mentzner?

I'm not concerned with anything so trivial. I want it to live up to the current standard set by D&D's biggest competitor, Paizo. You remember them, the one's currently eating WotC's lunch? In spite of no longer having any desire, whatsoever, to play or DM Pathfinder ever again, I still recommend and gift the Pathfinder Beginner Box because it is such a good introduction to D&D-type RPGs.

There's a lot of overwrought nerdrage in these threads, to be sure, but that doesn't magically invalidate the opinion of every poster in them.

Quote from: Haffrung;751050Why would WotC expect to sell Starter Sets to people who can't seem to comprehend that they're not the audience for the product?

What's next? 35 year D&D veterans fuming that the Introduction to Roleplaying chapter isn't as evocative as the one in Mentzner?

" Not the audience" is a cheap cop out to explain why the core D&D experience is being denied to those who buy the starter set.

The core D&D experience:

Players roll up/ create characters.

DM creates world/adventure and runs it for the players.

The End.

Moldvay basic did this in 64 pages. The WOTC set is 100 pages and they still apparently can't manage to provide it.

A set without replay value is just ad copy. Hoping the newbs don't notice or care doesn't mean that they aren't still being ripped off.

Quote from: Benoist;751057Well then that's all fine and good, because if I am not the target audience for that product, then (1) neither are my nephews, nieces, and all the kids I'd be the only one to offer a D&D boxed set to, because, lest we forget, the hobby propagates with people like me introducing other people of all ages to role playing games, and I'm personally not willing to offer a product to others that I would believe wouldn't do a good job to actually introduce what's cool about D&D, RPing, creating characters of your own, etc, and (2) the whole thing about uniting the fan base and all that was just bullshit, and what you're saying is basically what we've been told before with 4e - i.e. if what you say is true we're basically fired again as customers, and our only option as "hardcores" is to buy into the multi-pronged three books "hardcore" offering with rules up the wazoo.

The only people complaining as bitterly about Next as the grognard here, and citing uniting the fanbase with resentment, are the 4E fanatics on TBP. I don't believe uniting the fanbase is possible, or even necessary for D&D Next to be a success. But it does need to find a middle ground between the editions warriors, with the grognards and 4E system-wonks at the ends of the spectrum. The grognards will piss and moan endlessly about anything the least bit more complex or different from Moldvay basic, or formatted differently from the beloved books of their youth. The 4E system-wonks will call any mechanic that wasn't re-worked mathematically from the ground up to achieve sublime balance more evidence of a broken system and that Next is nothing more than an exercise in nostalgia for grognards.


Since they've pissed off both sets of radicals about equally, then they're probably right smack in the middle ground. Where they should be.