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The Wizards of the Coast SJWs got the new Dragonlance product line Cancelled, and now the creators of Dragonlance are suing Wizards for millions!



When a liberal like Margaret Weis is too "bigoted" to be allowed to publish, how long can the SJW dominance of pop culture last?

As I said elsewhere. The resulting losses are bound to get big brother Hasbro looking in and seeing how WotC is run. Hasbro doesn't take kindly to product line mismanagement. So the storm is just about to begin.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 01:12:12 AMWhen a liberal like Margaret Weis is too "bigoted" to be allowed to publish, how long can the SJW dominance of pop culture last?

How long? Pick one.

(a) Until all culture is destroyed and everyone kneels in fear of being "cancelled".
(b) Until the majority of people who are sick of this shit stand the fuck up and say NO.

If the silent majority exists and re-elects Trump, then maybe Option B has a chance. Otherwise, SJW demands will become the law of land, and it won't matter if that occurs formally or informally. One side of the culture war wins the most decisive battle of our lifetime in 2 weeks. Does that one battle win the entire culture war? Maybe not, but it's a huge pivot point.

Of course, this Dragonlance debacle is just a drop in the bucket, but the bucket is overflowing.

One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 03:51:28 AM
As I said elsewhere. The resulting losses are bound to get big brother Hasbro looking in and seeing how WotC is run. Hasbro doesn't take kindly to product line mismanagement. So the storm is just about to begin.

Maybe, maybe not, as I pointed out in my video.

Quote from: Melan on October 21, 2020, 04:55:08 AM
One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Yes, quite true. Also, it was created (or at least co-created) by a woman who became very famous in the RPG hobby. Which, as I pointed out in the video, is I think one of the reasons the SJWs needed to cancel it. It destroys their narrative of "until we came along, no woman was able to survive in this toxic hobby".

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:13:44 AM
Maybe, maybe not, as I pointed out in my video.

I did watch your video. I watch most of your videos. So yeah. I do listen.

I have my own problems with the D&D line right now. Like the fact that they are years behind in putting out new rules and character material. And instead are focusing too much on adventures.

Compared to the 3.5 and 4e eras, their output on character options in official books has been painfully slow. It makes you wonder how many people are actually writing for D&D these days.

Quote from: Melan on October 21, 2020, 04:55:08 AM
One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Never heard that but it would make sense. There are a number of actual strong fem characters (as opposed to 'strong 'cause we say so') in DL. Kitiara was probably one of the best villainesses I've read.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:15:08 AM
Yes, quite true. Also, it was created (or at least co-created) by a woman who became very famous in the RPG hobby. Which, as I pointed out in the video, is I think one of the reasons the SJWs needed to cancel it. It destroys their narrative of "until we came along, no woman was able to survive in this toxic hobby".

I've seen this in video games too. I find it personally enraging when the socjus brigades look at me blankly when I mention Roberta Williams.

I'm pretty sure that once the smoke clears, we're going to learn that Nic "Pedophile" Kelman killed the Dragonlance relaunch because he wanted to "clear the runway" for a pet project.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:15:08 AMYes, quite true. Also, it was created (or at least co-created) by a woman who became very famous in the RPG hobby. Which, as I pointed out in the video, is I think one of the reasons the SJWs needed to cancel it. It destroys their narrative of "until we came along, no woman was able to survive in this toxic hobby".

But aren't the most powerful villains in DL also female? That could also be "problematic".

Quote from: Melan on October 21, 2020, 04:55:08 AM
One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

The "explanation" i heard for that was that Margaret Weis didn't "really" count since she was a TSR employee at the time, and that she didn't really create Dragonlance, TSR did, she was just the TSR employee assigned to write the novel, so since she didn't create the entire setting from scratch, and market it herself, and get the publishing contract herself, none of her achievements "really" counted.

Smelled like moving goalposts to me.

"There were no popular female fantasy authors until we came around!"
"What about Margaret Weis?"
"She doesn't count. .. "

I've heard similar "She doesn't count explanations for others, like Anne McCaffrey, "Pern doesn't count because that's science fiction, not fantasy")

Quote from: Melan on October 21, 2020, 04:55:08 AM
One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Yeah, my wife loves dragons and has often asked when I'm running another Dragonlance adventure.

Quote from: silverstaff on October 21, 2020, 09:37:33 AMSmelled like moving goalposts to me.

"There were no popular female fantasy authors until we came around!"
"What about Margaret Weis?"
"She doesn't count. .. "

I've heard similar "She doesn't count explanations for others, like Anne McCaffrey, "Pern doesn't count because that's science fiction, not fantasy")

That's kind of strange, too. Just because a person can site one example doesn't mean it's easy for everyone. Why do they need to make Margaret Weis "not count" for any reason? The fact is that not many women are game publishers, and fewer in the old days. No point in diminishing Weis' accomplishments along the way. :P

Quote from: silverstaff on October 21, 2020, 09:37:33 AM
"There were no popular female fantasy authors until we came around!"
"What about Margaret Weis?"
"She doesn't count. .. "

I've heard similar "She doesn't count explanations for others, like Anne McCaffrey, "Pern doesn't count because that's science fiction, not fantasy")

  What's their expedition for Marion Zimmer Bradley? Or do they want to sweep her under the rug, as she was both 'on their side' and committed and abetted some truly sickening stuff?

Tangentially related, as this thread seems to be focusing somewhat on "women in RPGs", what do SJWs think of someone like Paul Jaquays who now self-identifies as a trans-woman...does that retroactively make everything he ever wrote count as "by a woman", is it only things written after transitioning, or is this a Schrodinger's Penis argument where it matters what politically affiliation he supports?

Quote from: silverstaff on October 21, 2020, 09:37:33 AM

Quote from: Melan on October 21, 2020, 04:55:08 AM
One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

The "explanation" i heard for that was that Margaret Weis didn't "really" count since she was a TSR employee at the time, and that she didn't really create Dragonlance, TSR did, she was just the TSR employee assigned to write the novel, so since she didn't create the entire setting from scratch, and market it herself, and get the publishing contract herself, none of her achievements "really" counted.

Smelled like moving goalposts to me.

"There were no popular female fantasy authors until we came around!"
"What about Margaret Weis?"
"She doesn't count. .. "

I've heard similar "She doesn't count explanations for others, like Anne McCaffrey, "Pern doesn't count because that's science fiction, not fantasy")

People really say that?!!!  How about Andre Norton, Mercedes Lackey, Robin Hobb, Tanith Lee, Katherine Kurtz, Patricia McKillip, Marion Zimmer Bradley ... the list goes on.  I consider Andre Norton in particular to be one of the most influential fantasy authors of all time.  She's certainly a personal favorite.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 03:51:28 AM
As I said elsewhere. The resulting losses are bound to get big brother Hasbro looking in and seeing how WotC is run. Hasbro doesn't take kindly to product line mismanagement. So the storm is just about to begin.

Maybe, maybe not, as I pointed out in my video.

Hasbro has in the past tightened the dogs leash. If they fuck this up enough Im pretty sure that leash will be tightened again.

Keep in mind we do not know for sure WOTC ended the deal for SJW reasons.

They have been messing with W&H on and off for years now so this may have been just another of those. This time it may backfire.

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 10:37:21 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 03:51:28 AM
As I said elsewhere. The resulting losses are bound to get big brother Hasbro looking in and seeing how WotC is run. Hasbro doesn't take kindly to product line mismanagement. So the storm is just about to begin.

Maybe, maybe not, as I pointed out in my video.

Hasbro has in the past tightened the dogs leash. If they fuck this up enough Im pretty sure that leash will be tightened again.

How has that happened in the past?  I'm not doubting you, just curious.  At the 2006(?) CES I happened to chat with a Hasbro VP on a shuttle bus, and he said they were pretty hands-off on WOTC because Hasbro management didn't have much domain knowledge in that area.   I'm wondering how that changed.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 21, 2020, 11:04:05 AM
How has that happened in the past?  I'm not doubting you, just curious.  At the 2006(?) CES I happened to chat with a Hasbro VP on a shuttle bus, and he said they were pretty hands-off on WOTC because Hasbro management didn't have much domain knowledge in that area.   I'm wondering how that changed.

   Probably the grand unfulfilled ambitions and near-collapse of D&D 4E, although that could either be offset by the success of 5E or have drawn more attention. (I still sometimes think that WotC brought in Pundit to arrange a demonic contract for the success of 5E, and that the hidden patron is now calling due his marker. :) )

Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 21, 2020, 08:17:17 AM

I've seen this in video games too. I find it personally enraging when the socjus brigades look at me blankly when I mention Roberta Williams.

People will also give you that look if you mention Anne Westfall.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 11:07:30 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 21, 2020, 11:04:05 AM
How has that happened in the past?  I'm not doubting you, just curious.  At the 2006(?) CES I happened to chat with a Hasbro VP on a shuttle bus, and he said they were pretty hands-off on WOTC because Hasbro management didn't have much domain knowledge in that area.   I'm wondering how that changed.

   Probably the grand unfulfilled ambitions and near-collapse of D&D 4E, although that could either be offset by the success of 5E or have drawn more attention. (I still sometimes think that WotC brought in Pundit to arrange a demonic contract for the success of 5E, and that the hidden patron is now calling due his marker. :) )

The failure of 4e and the mishandling of just about every board game they tried to hand to WOTC. According to one of the designers I talked with pre-5e they got fed up enough they put WOTC on a tight budget. According to another Hasbro was ready to close the D&D line if 5e didnt work. The execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 11:07:30 AM


   Probably the grand unfulfilled ambitions and near-collapse of D&D 4E, although that could either be offset by the success of 5E or have drawn more attention. (I still sometimes think that WotC brought in Pundit to arrange a demonic contract for the success of 5E, and that the hidden patron is now calling due his marker. :) )

Pundit, have you been summoning something bigger than your head??

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AMThe execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

I only visited WotC's forum once during the 4e era. Essentials had just been released and I was curious as to whether it might appeal to me more than 4e did. Yikes! Even by the low standards of internet forums that was a seriously disfunctional bunch. I can see why any Hasbro exec would have been appalled after taking one look.

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AM
The execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

  There was definitely misbehavior among 4E fans during the playtest and after release, but as for RPGNet %u2026 given that they've swung full steam ahead to backing 5E (as they see it) and banned many of the 4E fans, and seeing their behavior and the attitude of the overall fanbase since the 5E launch, I'm thinking of Matthew 12:43-45.

Quote from: Brad on October 21, 2020, 10:09:09 AM
Tangentially related, as this thread seems to be focusing somewhat on "women in RPGs", what do SJWs think of someone like Paul Jaquays who now self-identifies as a trans-woman...does that retroactively make everything he ever wrote count as "by a woman", is it only things written after transitioning, or is this a Schrodinger's Penis argument where it matters what politically affiliation he supports?

'She was always secretly a woman, even if she didn't know it.'

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 21, 2020, 06:15:08 AM
Yes, quite true. Also, it was created (or at least co-created) by a woman who became very famous in the RPG hobby. Which, as I pointed out in the video, is I think one of the reasons the SJWs needed to cancel it. It destroys their narrative of "until we came along, no woman was able to survive in this toxic hobby".

So I guess it's fair to state for the sjw that "Now that we came along, no woman will be able to survive in this toxic hobby, not even the formerly tremendously successful ones."

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 03:51:28 AM
As I said elsewhere. The resulting losses are bound to get big brother Hasbro looking in and seeing how WotC is run. Hasbro doesn't take kindly to product line mismanagement. So the storm is just about to begin.

I would disagree. They way major corps have been taking the knee for Burn-Loot-Murder they are still living in fear of the SJW outrage brigade.

In my opinion all these Corporations that have Ceo's/Boards that continually bow down to their SJW infiltrators are all suffering from a version of Battered Wife syndrome.

I'm still trying to figure out the best way to name it:

Battered Straight White Male syndrome?

Battered Western Civilization syndrome?

Battered White Guilt Syndrome?


Just look how many Battered women syndrome symptoms fit people/groups that continually kowtow to SJW critical theory dogma:

Quote from: When battered woman syndrome (BWS) manifests as PTSD, on October 21, 2020, 03:51:28 AM
The abused thinks that the violence was their fault.
The abused has an inability to place the responsibility for the violence elsewhere.
The abused fears for their life, and/or, the lives of loved ones whom the abuser might or has threatened to harm (e.g., children-in-common, close relatives, or friends).
The abused has an irrational belief that the abuser is omnipresent and omniscient.

First, tension builds in the relationship.
Second, the abusive partner releases tension via violence while blaming the victim for having caused the violence.
Third, the violent partner makes gestures of contrition. However, the partner does not find solutions to avoid another phase of tension building and release so the cycle repeats.
The repetition of the violence, despite the abuser's attempts to "make nice", results in the abused partner feeling at fault for not preventing a repeat cycle of violence.
However, since the victim is not at fault and the violence is internally driven by the abuser, this self-blame results in feelings of helplessness rather than empowerment.
The feeling of being both responsible for and helpless to stop the violence leads in turn to depression and passivity.
This learned depression and passivity makes it difficult for the abused partner to marshal the resources and support system needed to leave.

Yes, it's true. SJW's are literally giving people PTSD.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 06:49:12 AM
...
I have my own problems with the D&D line right now. Like the fact that they are years behind in putting out new rules and character material. And instead are focusing too much on adventures.

Compared to the 3.5 and 4e eras, their output on character options in official books has been painfully slow. It makes you wonder how many people are actually writing for D&D these days.

As someone who plays lost of different systems I have never understood this particular complaint. I look at my 5e core books and see tons of options.

I was enlightened by a member of my gaming group why D&D players keep asking for more character options: They pointed out to me that for the majority of the RPG hobby, D&D5e will literally be the only game that they will play until a new edition comes out...

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 10:05:22 AM
...  What's their expedition for Marion Zimmer Bradley? Or do they want to sweep her under the rug, as she was both 'on their side' and committed and abetted some truly sickening stuff?

Total memory hole. They never bring her up. She was absolutely one of them, and they are all on the record in old posts and blogs saying so.

Unless she is specifically mentioned by name, by someone willing to stir the pot, her name never comes up anymore in fantasy author discussions.

Quote from: Brad on October 21, 2020, 10:09:09 AMis this a Schrodinger's Penis argument where it matters what politically affiliation he supports?

That is simultaneously the most horrible and funniest image I've read in months.  Kudos to you, sir.  ;D

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on October 21, 2020, 06:49:12 AM
Compared to the 3.5 and 4e eras, their output on character options in official books has been painfully slow. It makes you wonder how many people are actually writing for D&D these days.

Honestly, that's one of the reasons 5e has been so successful.  No option treadmill, with rushed product, poorly play-tested, that adds more and more unbalance to the system until it collapses.  OD&D, 1e and 2e (to a lesser extent, especially after the splats) were more about defining your character through how you played him, and less about defining your character by mechanics.  It's 3e and 4e that made "character build" (and the dreaded "optimization") a thing..  In 1e every fighter was just about mechanically the same as every other; you differentiated through magic items and roleplaying.  5e has gone back to that a little (but just a little, it's still more 3e than 1e), and it hasn't hurt it at all.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 11:07:30 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on October 21, 2020, 11:04:05 AM
How has that happened in the past?  I'm not doubting you, just curious.  At the 2006(?) CES I happened to chat with a Hasbro VP on a shuttle bus, and he said they were pretty hands-off on WOTC because Hasbro management didn't have much domain knowledge in that area.   I'm wondering how that changed.

   Probably the grand unfulfilled ambitions and near-collapse of D&D 4E, although that could either be offset by the success of 5E or have drawn more attention. (I still sometimes think that WotC brought in Pundit to arrange a demonic contract for the success of 5E, and that the hidden patron is now calling due his marker. :) )

No comment.

Quote from: Dimitrios on October 21, 2020, 12:29:57 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AMThe execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

I only visited WotC's forum once during the 4e era. Essentials had just been released and I was curious as to whether it might appeal to me more than 4e did. Yikes! Even by the low standards of internet forums that was a seriously disfunctional bunch. I can see why any Hasbro exec would have been appalled after taking one look.

I always thought the WOTC boards at the time were a lot better than Rpgnet.  Certainly they at least seemed to play 4E enough to know how it actually worked, something that often seemed lacking in Rpgnet posters who often seemed to be fighting an edition war over a game that was somewhat different to the one that was actually in the books.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 12:31:34 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AM
The execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

  There was definitely misbehavior among 4E fans during the playtest and after release, but as for RPGNet %u2026 given that they've swung full steam ahead to backing 5E (as they see it) and banned many of the 4E fans, and seeing their behavior and the attitude of the overall fanbase since the 5E launch, I'm thinking of Matthew 12:43-45.

As recently as last year there was a pretty toxic bunch of 4E fans over at ENWorld.

Eventually Hasbro stopped handing WOTC board game projects not their own as WOTC kept mishandling them. They seem to be so-so with their own in-house games. But botched pretty much every acquisition and are notorious for letting copyrights and trademarks lapse. This on top of marketing screwups left and right.

Their D&D board games are still chugging along slowly.

Quote from: TJS on October 23, 2020, 06:18:38 AM
I always thought the WOTC boards at the time were a lot better than Rpgnet.  Certainly they at least seemed to play 4E enough to know how it actually worked, something that often seemed lacking in Rpgnet posters who often seemed to be fighting an edition war over a game that was somewhat different to the one that was actually in the books.

The WotC boards were great back in the day before the rise of social media.

Quote from: Mishihari on October 21, 2020, 11:04:05 AM
...At the 2006(?) CES I happened to chat with a Hasbro VP on a shuttle bus, and he said they were pretty hands-off on WOTC because Hasbro management didn't have much domain knowledge in that area.  ...

This is a core assumption that will continue to bite hasbro in the ass:

The tighter budget of 5e was a band aid to the core issues at WOTC.

In addition to the 4e debacle we can see other signs of WOTC's core issues:

Quote from: Omega on October 23, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
Eventually Hasbro stopped handing WOTC board game projects not their own as WOTC kept mishandling them. They seem to be so-so with their own in-house games. But botched pretty much every acquisition and are notorious for letting copyrights and trademarks lapse. This on top of marketing screwups left and right.
...

The truth is that they really don't have "much domain knowledge" themselves.

Pre TSR acquisition, WOTC could not independently create an RPG that could even get the notice and following of a second tier brand at the time like Shadowrun.

They have only been successful as an RPG company since they bought the market leader. They literally imported all the talent that made 3.x a success.

And they handily displayed that when they let their in-house "homegrown" talent loose  *cough, 4e, cough* that they really have no idea what their fanbase actually wants.

And that is before we start to account for the fact that they are Woke as fuck and starting to push their ideology through the D&D brand.

5e's success is not due to any great RPG design chops or direction. It is the most mechanically conservative D&D design of all the previous editions. It was a success because it was 1: Good enough for the actual D&D fan base. And 2: It hit just at the right time when playing D&D became a cultural fad again.

The WOkeTC insider "talent" pool talent has no special talent at all. The are not more skilled or insightful about designing rpg's than any number of independent OSR creators. In fact they have demonstrated that in many cases they possess less skill and talent than many an independent OSR creator has who actually has to sell product without the luxury of being the market leader to earn his pay.

I am willing to state that Hasbro could fire everyone involved with D&D at WOTC tomorrow.

Then consult a poll at TheRPGSite ranking the top 10 independent RPG/OSR creators.

Print it out, and begin to throw darts until 6 random people are selected from that list.

Put them in charge of D&D. Let them hire whomever else they need.

Then sit back and watch the quality of product improve. You would have a team of people with more actual creativity, real business acumen, and more actual "domain knowledge", than anyone else currently employed at WOTC.

But I seriously doubt that the "Great Un-Wokening"  of D&D will happen anytime soon.

Quote from: Shasarak on October 23, 2020, 04:47:20 PM

Quote from: TJS on October 23, 2020, 06:18:38 AM
I always thought the WOTC boards at the time were a lot better than Rpgnet.  Certainly they at least seemed to play 4E enough to know how it actually worked, something that often seemed lacking in Rpgnet posters who often seemed to be fighting an edition war over a game that was somewhat different to the one that was actually in the books.

The WotC boards were great back in the day before the rise of social media.

Oh yeah, I was on the 3.5 boards all the time back in college. (man... I feel old) It helped me figure out how to play, especially as it was my first TTRPG - and it was fun bouncing houserule stuff off of each-other.

Amusingly, I am 99% convinced that Pathfinder stole/borrowed a lot of the changes they made to 3.5 from those boards with mild tweaks. There were two popular (and long-running - I'm talking years - I think they may have even been stickied) threads about how to tweak the sorcerer to bring it more in line with the wizard. One of them was bloodlines, with where the magic came from giving extra powers. The other was basically what Pathfinder's Arcane bloodline is - which is sort of the default bloodline.

Quote from: "Melan"One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Which probably played a role in why it was dropped.

A predictable theme is emerging. JK Rowling ran afoul of the SJWs, there is that lesbian youtuber (https://clashdaily.com/2020/02/lesbian-youtuber-explains-why-shes-leaving-the-insane-progressive-left-video/) that rebelled against the radical left, Thirsty Sword Lesbians turned out to be a game made by a dude in a dress, not a lesbian, and so on.

In rebelling against alpha males and tradition, feminists have become the flunkies of omega males (those males who have no stake in the future due to lack of genetic offspring – homosexual men, "trans women", incels, sexually dysfunctional males; it is natural for those who have no stake in the future to envy those who do, hence their desire to burn everything down; cf. Cain and Abel). Rather than becoming the morality that alpha males preach, women nurture the bitterness and envy of omega males. Women must nurture something. If not babies, then rancor. This is mirrored in Scripture when Eve rebelled against God when she was deceived by Satan and became his flunky. Obviously our ancestors were trying to tell us something in the stories they told.

And that is the fatal flaw of feminism and the myth of the strong independent woman.

Women are agreeable and conciliatory by nature; this increases the likelihood of being impregnated and passing on their genetic material, so these traits are selected for by evolution. This means that women's movements are readily infiltrated by predatory omega males.

When people talk about "LGBTQ", they are talking about homosexual men and "trans women". Biological women therein have become second class citizens. I suspect this is the reason why liberalism has become rancid and turned malevolent.

SJWs will attack anything that actually glorifies women, that celebrates both virginity and motherhood, and instead they will promulgate those things which destroy women and turn them into promiscuous and infertile whores. Dragonlance is anathema to all things SJW.

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

This deadness to moral distinctions is the sign of deep moral corruption.

Well looks like the the thread at Enworld was closed spectacularly derailed imo by another Go GO SJW Woke Ranger.

One of those I am not calling you racist yet if you disagree with what I think is racist because of "reasons and feels" you are categorically racist. The poster claimed our own Bedrockbredan was racist because BB dared to want to have a discussion and not assume the poster was objectively right.

Another good vid pundit. I'm a Dragonlance fan from way back in the day. And my unpopular opinion is I wish Dragonlance would just be buried and forgotten by WotC. TSR/WotC have "Cataclysmed" the setting at least three times in a relatively short amount of time. I'd think the residents of Krynn and Taladas (and other lands/continents) would all suffer from PTSD. The SJW/woke crowd would hate my DL campaign as I don't allow any races other than human, elf, dwarf, kender, half-elf and gnome. No sentient machines, no dragonmen, no demon half breeds. And yes, half-elfs can have an origin of less than savory means. WotC has driven me into the OSR and .... I love it.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on October 24, 2020, 07:25:40 AM

Quote from: "Melan"One ironic thing about the whole shitstorm: Dragonlance was probably the only D&D novel series that consistently appealed to women, and had a sizeable female readership.

Which probably played a role in why it was dropped.

A predictable theme is emerging. JK Rowling ran afoul of the SJWs, there is that lesbian youtuber (https://clashdaily.com/2020/02/lesbian-youtuber-explains-why-shes-leaving-the-insane-progressive-left-video/) that rebelled against the radical left, Thirsty Sword Lesbians turned out to be a game made by a dude in a dress, not a lesbian, and so on.

In rebelling against alpha males and tradition, feminists have become the flunkies of omega males (those males who have no stake in the future due to lack of genetic offspring – homosexual men, "trans women", incels, sexually dysfunctional males; it is natural for those who have no stake in the future to envy those who do, hence their desire to burn everything down; cf. Cain and Abel). Rather than becoming the morality that alpha males preach, women nurture the bitterness and envy of omega males. Women must nurture something. If not babies, then rancor. This is mirrored in Scripture when Eve rebelled against God when she was deceived by Satan and became his flunky. Obviously our ancestors were trying to tell us something in the stories they told.

And that is the fatal flaw of feminism and the myth of the strong independent woman.

Women are agreeable and conciliatory by nature; this increases the likelihood of being impregnated and passing on their genetic material, so these traits are selected for by evolution. This means that women's movements are readily infiltrated by predatory omega males.

When people talk about "LGBTQ", they are talking about homosexual men and "trans women". Biological women therein have become second class citizens. I suspect this is the reason why liberalism has become rancid and turned malevolent.

SJWs will attack anything that actually glorifies women, that celebrates both virginity and motherhood, and instead they will promulgate those things which destroy women and turn them into promiscuous and infertile whores. Dragonlance is anathema to all things SJW.

"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20)

This deadness to moral distinctions is the sign of deep moral corruption.

Aside from the fact that "feminism" is catch-all term for a diversity of perspectives, it would seem that you're missing one of the primary themes of feminism, that women are not only--or need not be--defined by biology, as virgins-to-mothers. Modern women have the right and capacity to choose otherwise, to define themselves as human beings. Just like men. I'd say that's a pretty nifty idea.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on October 24, 2020, 10:50:36 AM
Another good vid pundit. I'm a Dragonlance fan from way back in the day. And my unpopular opinion is I wish Dragonlance would just be buried and forgotten by WotC. TSR/WotC have "Cataclysmed" the setting at least three times in a relatively short amount of time.

I agree. The effectiveness of Earth shattering events is  that they are really rare and we either get destroyed or at least some characters get a 'they lived happily ever after.' If they wanted to do another Earth shattering event, then let a few thousand years go by at least.

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on October 24, 2020, 07:25:40 AMAnd that is the fatal flaw of feminism and the myth of the strong independent woman.

Women are agreeable and conciliatory by nature; this increases the likelihood of being impregnated and passing on their genetic material, so these traits are selected for by evolution. This means that women's movements are readily infiltrated by predatory omega males.

When people talk about "LGBTQ", they are talking about homosexual men and "trans women". Biological women therein have become second class citizens. I suspect this is the reason why liberalism has become rancid and turned malevolent.

1: I think its more a flaw or 3rd wave fake feminism that was pushed hard by extremist lesbians. You have the ongoing problem of woman preaching how strong they are. Then endlessly bitching about everything and everything else and how defenseless they are and ooooh wont someone saaaaaaave them! And this undermines an allready self undermined ideal.

2: are you kidding me? Women are vicious and have pulled the strings of many so called "patriarchal" civilizations since probably the dawn of time. And this has been repeatedly pointed out by women. Sometimes in rather surprising ways.

3: Not really. Non-lesbian women have fallen way by the wayside along with non trans/gay/bi/attack helicopter men. Lesbians spearheaded this current movement and are pissed other "oppresseds" were allowed to join the club.

x: As for Dragonlance and its current state. Some might say its karma for how Weiss and Hickman have acted in the past. Still. I hope they win this little contest as WOTC has racked up a huge bill of bad karma that I hope buries them for good some day.

Quote from: silverstaff on October 21, 2020, 09:37:33 AM
The "explanation" i heard for that was that Margaret Weis didn't "really" count since she was a TSR employee at the time, and that she didn't really create Dragonlance, TSR did, she was just the TSR employee assigned to write the novel, so since she didn't create the entire setting from scratch, and market it herself, and get the publishing contract herself, none of her achievements "really" counted.

Margaret Weis was called in to develop the novels while Dragonlance was still being created. She, however, became part of the developers team, fleshed out Raistlin and, it is worth mentioning, finished the novels before the developers could finish the modules. "Dragons of Autumn Twilight" was a narration of the first DL modules, but from "Dragons of the Winter Night" she and Tracy Hickman led the narrative wave, with the module writers following.

However, Laura Hickman was part of the team from the very conception of the setting (I think that the first seeds came from her and Tracy), so...

I was "hit" by Dragonlance while I was in my mid-teens, so at the right age. To me it was the fantasy version of Star Wars or something. I ran, as the DM, the full campaign twice, and I even wrote my own tabletop version of the "Legends". However even back then, when I had both more enthusiasm and naiveté, it was clear that Krynn was a world born to support a single saga. I was never interested in what followed.

I met Tracy and Laura Hickman when they were invited in Italy at Lucca Comics and Games, a few years ago. We chatted a bit and spent a pleasant evening together. They were two truly nice and genuine people.

Quote from: Lynn on October 24, 2020, 12:42:24 PMI agree. The effectiveness of Earth shattering events is  that they are really rare and we either get destroyed or at least some characters get a 'they lived happily ever after.' If they wanted to do another Earth shattering event, then let a few thousand years go by at least.

Never going to happen. Look at comic book universes, for instance. You're lucky to go a year or two without a world-shattering event.

That's because they serve a couple purposes for writers. One, they're a way to up the stakes, without having to bother building up why we should be invested in some character or event. Because if you put the whole planet at risk, then you automatically encompass things everyone already cares about. Second, it's a reset button. Which is crack for authors who want to put their own stamp on a setting by taking it in a new direction or reimagining things, instead of just making mild tweaks to someone else's work.

The reason fans don't like them are obvious corollaries to the above: It's a way to shortcut the real work of storytelling, and a way for hacks to rewrite something the fans are already invested in. Shattering the world is inherently a cheap trick.

But while world shattering events can repel readers, they also attract them, for reasons similar to those that appeal to writers: The fans get to see something new, while still retaining at least shards of the familiar; and the story can just cut to the drama without all the build up.

So with the strong incentives for writers and a love/hate response from fans, as long as you have an expansive, ever-growing world with multiple writers, crises on infinite franchises are going to keep happening.

You can only do so many "crisis" events before customers start to get increasingly sick of it and eventually come to despise it if done too much or too frequently or too world changing, or all of the above and more.

DC still hasnt learned this despite the ever increasing hatred fans have for each succeeding crisis event.

Marvel hit on the perfect approach till fairly recently. The stealth crisis or the limited crisis. The stealth ones tend to be either characters brought back from the dead. Rebooting some element. Or characters going through an individual crisis and reinventing themselves in some way. Often costume changes and sometimes more. Limited ones tend to be some big event that seems big but usually does not change the world once over. Things go back to normal. Infinity gem events for example. The stakes tend to be huge. But by conclusion nothing has changed much. Same with Civil War and Secret War.

Its when Marvel tries a world changing event that near invariably they fail.

Dragonlance is interesting in that you dont learn the event is a world threatening one till near the end. Least that was till later sets which became one world altering event after another and several were met with dislike from fans. Especially as theres been what 3? 4 now?

L5R had a problem with the world-changing events happening way too often (I heard it was because they were tied to the outcomes card game tournaments IRL). The Empire had centuries of relative stability then an action-packed decade or two of every crazy-ass thing happening.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 12:31:34 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AM
The execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

  There was definitely misbehavior among 4E fans during the playtest and after release, but as for RPGNet %u2026 given that they've swung full steam ahead to backing 5E (as they see it) and banned many of the 4E fans, and seeing their behavior and the attitude of the overall fanbase since the 5E launch, I'm thinking of Matthew 12:43-45.

Strange, I want to play 4E for some reason.

Yeah, honestly, metaplot ruins settings, I'm firmly convinced. Or, at least, metaplot that tries to have big, huge, shattering changes in it. Shadowrun's 1:1 time progression metaplot mostly worked, until the big End-of-3E crash completely rewrote the world. World of Darkness mostly made it work... mostly. But generally speaking, metaplot is just obnoxious. And when you get into settings that just have one world-reshaping calamity after another, like the TSR / WotC properties do? It's maddening. Even Ravenloft, which was almost explicitly build to allow for it, suffers from it.

Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Greetings!

Ahh, but why do you think that SJW's *LOVE* Kender and Tinker Gnomes so much? ;D

And how did Kender and Tinker Gnomes come about? Spoil away, my friend. I'm not going to buy dozens of Dragonlance novels to find out. I was never interested in the Dragonlance world very much, as I have always had my world of Thandor. Interestingly, though, I bought a few Dragonlance modules and a several of the novels--a decent enough set of stories, adventures, and modules--but even with a minimal level of exposure, plus what I saw in other game groups I was in at the time--I also grew a passionate hatred and contempt for the Kender and the Tinker Gnomes, in particular. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark it ws due to the Graygem of Gargath housing the progenitor god who created everything yet was one of those I create only to destroy types. So they locked him into the gem. Woke SJWs ignore the part about the Graygem cursing existing races into Kenger, Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnomes. At first it was a major artifact then we find out it holds a god that easily create and destroy.

Then again those wackos think Charm spells and potions are the same thing as sexual assault so their is no reasoning with them. I can't engage with someone who thinks like that. So what a sleep spell is also a form of sexual assault because I am taking away the affected creature choice of whether to sleep or not.

Shark a helpful link: https://lexicon.dragonlancenexus.com/index.php/Graygem_of_Gargath

Mind you I kind of understand the dislike for Gully Dwarves I mean their main skill was grovelling with the hopes that the target is so disgusted at the pathetic display as to ignore the Gully Dwarf. 

Shark your wrong about the races they despise them simply because they hate their origin story. Want to set off one of them ask them their true feelings on any of the three races.

Quote from: SHARK on October 25, 2020, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Greetings!

Ahh, but why do you think that SJW's *LOVE* Kender and Tinker Gnomes so much? ;D

And how did Kender and Tinker Gnomes come about? Spoil away, my friend. I'm not going to buy dozens of Dragonlance novels to find out. I was never interested in the Dragonlance world very much, as I have always had my world of Thandor. Interestingly, though, I bought a few Dragonlance modules and a several of the novels--a decent enough set of stories, adventures, and modules--but even with a minimal level of exposure, plus what I saw in other game groups I was in at the time--I also grew a passionate hatred and contempt for the Kender and the Tinker Gnomes, in particular. ;D

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

   I followed the Fifth Age from its inception, consider one of the designers an online friend, and have delved deeply--and everything I have heard is that Summer Flame was written by Weis & Hickman without any strong direction from TSR as to content. They wanted to make it into a trilogy with spinoff material, and TSR stuck with the 'one book under the contract,' but the direction is all theirs. There are disputes as to whether it was meant as an ending or just an attempt to forcibly turn the page of the setting, but nothing has been said to indicate that TSR set the books' direction.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators. Kender I have mixed feelings about and both authors deserve all the scorn and ridicule from the fans about the race. The whole "we don't like thieves in the setting so lets include a bunch of natural born kleptomaniacs without any sense of personal property" was bound to cause issues at the table. I can count on one hand the amount of times Kenders were played and run properly at most tables.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators. Kender I have mixed feelings about and both authors deserve all the scorn and ridicule from the fans about the race. The whole "we don't like thieves in the setting so lets include a bunch of natural born kleptomaniacs without any sense of personal property" was bound to cause issues at the table. I can count on one hand the amount of times Kenders were played and run properly at most tables.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 25, 2020, 02:08:18 PM
   I followed the Fifth Age from its inception, consider one of the designers an online friend, and have delved deeply--and everything I have heard is that Summer Flame was written by Weis & Hickman without any strong direction from TSR as to content. They wanted to make it into a trilogy with spinoff material, and TSR stuck with the 'one book under the contract,' but the direction is all theirs. There are disputes as to whether it was meant as an ending or just an attempt to forcibly turn the page of the setting, but nothing has been said to indicate that TSR set the books' direction.

From what I heard online and outside of it I hear conflicting stories who is at fault. That novel killed the setting imo. It's one thing to nuke the setting. It's another to create a bunch of new characters in the setting to only then kill them off in one book. The authors blame Wotc. Wotc blames the authors I think both are to blame. Every now and then I reread the core novels and it's the only one each tim that leaves me with a WTF moment and making me want to throw it across the room.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 03:35:04 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators.

That's how it was on Ansalon, the continent where the main Dragonlance books took place. Time of the Dragon covered the continent of Taladas on the other side of Krynn. That's where the not-idiotic variant of the Tinker Gnomes was much more common. They also had a Roman-ish place run by minotaurs and a valley where the local kender were not characterized by fearlessness & kleptomania but instead by paranoia and a belief in preemptively stealing/destroying potential opponents' weapons or other instruments that could hurt them. I liked Taladas enough that I wanted to forget about the other side of the world.

Quote from: Innocent Smith on October 25, 2020, 04:58:33 AM
Strange, I want to play 4E for some reason.

Get 4e D&D Gamma World. Its a mess for other reasons, but at least makes 4e more like D&D rahter than an MMO emulator or board game.

Quote from: Bruwulf on October 25, 2020, 10:45:54 AM
Yeah, honestly, metaplot ruins settings, I'm firmly convinced. Or, at least, metaplot that tries to have big, huge, shattering changes in it.

Metaplot isnt the problem. Its metaplot done badly. Which has plagued Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms for a long long time.

Poor execution, huge changes, and/or too frequent changes. FR and DL both have been through four or more at this point. The rest are just tales of adventurers and wold in motion elements.

While it was not a great book. I think the 5e guide to FR did it right as its overall just world in motion stuff. Regions have recovered from the spellplague, or are rebuilding from the last wave of orcs that devastated some kindgoms... again... and some other changes mostly small. Compare that to things like the Spellplague and the Test of the Gods and whatever other disasters.

One thing I do not like about Weis and Hickman is their incessant claims that they are the biggest thing ever. If I am not mistaken their legal suit even makes a claim that Dragonlance rivals Tolkein in popularity. And they were claiming that way back even so wouldnt surprise me at all.

Thanks HD

We may disagree on much yet appreciate the information.

From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Quote from: Omega on October 25, 2020, 07:26:14 PM
One thing I do not like about Weis and Hickman is their incessant claims that they are the biggest thing ever. If I am not mistaken their legal suit even makes a claim that Dragonlance rivals Tolkein in popularity. And they were claiming that way back even so wouldnt surprise me at all.

Seconded

That is the only thing in the lawsuit that they tend to inflate the value of their works. I like Dragonlance yet it's not in the same league as Tolkien.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 08:03:27 PM
From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Dont be fooled sureshot, Taladas was weaksauce which is why it never ever got traction.

I think that was in part the somewhat lacklustre presentation and if I recall right. The relative lack of much to do with Taladas in the form of supplements, books, modules. I cant even recall much, if any, mention of it in Dragon. Im pretty sure there was... something... but nothing comes to mind.

Same with Thunder Rift and even Ravenloft really. There was a span in Dragon where TSR really slacked off on promoting their own stuff.

Quote from: Shasarak on October 25, 2020, 10:05:04 PM

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 08:03:27 PM
From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Dont be fooled sureshot, Taladas was weaksauce which is why it never ever got traction.

Taladas was fairly good for a setting using Dragonlance, but that doesn't make it a great setting; it still had to work against the bad in Dragonlance.

As for the question about the minotaurs, I don't recall them having an empire on the Ansalon side...I think they were largely sailors & pirates, but it's been a long time since I've looked.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 10:34:57 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on October 25, 2020, 10:05:04 PM

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 08:03:27 PM
From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Dont be fooled sureshot, Taladas was weaksauce which is why it never ever got traction.

Taladas was fairly good for a setting using Dragonlance, but that doesn't make it a great setting; it still had to work against the bad in Dragonlance.

As for the question about the minotaurs, I don't recall them having an empire on the Ansalon side...I think they were largely sailors & pirates, but it's been a long time since I've looked.

A later story line had them invading one of the Elven lands but that was the one that had Takahisis sending Krynn down the wrong trouser leg in time so best we not talk about that.

Quote from: Shasarak on October 25, 2020, 10:05:04 PM

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 08:03:27 PM
From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Dont be fooled sureshot, Taladas was weaksauce which is why it never ever got traction.

It was the only part of the setting I kind of liked.

Quote from: Shasarak on October 26, 2020, 01:04:59 AM
A later story line had them invading one of the Elven lands but that was the one that had Takahisis sending Krynn down the wrong trouser leg in time so best we not talk about that.

   Maybe it's an excessive attachment to the Fifth Age on my part, but I'm having trouble not seeing subtext in 'the supreme force of Evil steals the world away from its rightful masters, and everything goes to the Abyss because of it, until they finally return to the world and are able to set things mostly right.'

I actually got into Dragonlance through Taladas. It was my first AD&D product after D&D Known World. It was a great read, but I did get confused by the whole War of the Lance thing going on.

Quote from: RPGPundit on October 26, 2020, 04:38:42 AM
It was the only part of the setting I kind of liked.

At least we still have Breakfast at Tiffany's, so thats one thing we got.

Looks like there was a settlement and it seems to be in the author's favor.
https://www.geeknative.com/105376/dragonlance-lawsuit-ended-against-wizards-of-the-coast/ (https://www.geeknative.com/105376/dragonlance-lawsuit-ended-against-wizards-of-the-coast/)

Quote from: zircher on December 20, 2020, 01:43:26 PM
Looks like there was a settlement and it seems to be in the author's favor.
https://www.geeknative.com/105376/dragonlance-lawsuit-ended-against-wizards-of-the-coast/ (https://www.geeknative.com/105376/dragonlance-lawsuit-ended-against-wizards-of-the-coast/)

Interesting. This does suggest a quiet settlement. My guess is WotC didn't want to go through discovery and have Weis and Hickman airing their dirty laundry.

I guess we'll see when Weis makes her next announcement.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 21, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
...Interesting. This does suggest a quiet settlement. My guess is WotC didn't want to go through discovery and have Weis and Hickman airing their dirty laundry.

If I were to place money that would be my guess as well. Weis and Hickman has no problems until WOTC switched the editing team that they had to get approvals from.

Then when their new editor comes in (A guy who's CV includes a novel that makes Vladimir Nabokov look like a prude.),  previously approved manuscripts ready to go to print suddenly became 'problematic' requiring multi page re-writes...

Someone at WOTC must have known they would get it hard and fast if it went to court. Rarely have I seen a big company back off like this.

My money is still on the declaration that the Dragonlance manuscripts were "problematic" was just a pretense and the real reason Wizards pulled this stunt are something else entirely.

Looks like Wizards were hope that Weis and Hickman would back down, and when W&H called their bluff, WOTC changed their tune.

If Wotc were expecting them to back off especially in this day and age of social media they deserve all the negative feedback. I am not surprised that they backed off and as quickly as they did. Not to mention next to RA Salvatore and Ed Greenwood they are fairly well known at least in the D&D rpg community. IF wotc thought they were going to pull a fast one on both authors and the fanbase they were sadly mistaken.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 21, 2020, 10:58:33 PM
If I were to place money that would be my guess as well. Weis and Hickman has no problems until WOTC switched the editing team that they had to get approvals from.

Then when their new editor comes in (A guy who's CV includes a novel that makes Vladimir Nabokov look like a prude.),  previously approved manuscripts ready to go to print suddenly became 'problematic' requiring multi page re-writes...

Someone at WOTC must have known they would get it hard and fast if it went to court. Rarely have I seen a big company back off like this.

Another "diversity" hire I see no clue to what they are doing yet they checked off a few boxes on the diversity and inclusivity list. Funny how his novel is not "problamatic" yet suddenly the new manuscript is. Nice to see Wotc bend the knee for the right reasons for once.

I actually think a lot of this 'kulturkampf' is a 'hatchet job' in sheep's clothing to trim undesired divisions down to ignorability. Too frequent pattern across several industries. Which is a pity because it looks like the deliberate trawling of sea beds to kill off future bounty -- probably big corporate "thinking" it is salting the earth of its nascent competition when it is really strengthening external competitors and sowing its own demise (like myth of Uranus' vengeance against Saturn through the grandchildren).

Not every society is interested in selling off its cultural riches to the highest bidder...  ;)

That said, I would not mind a return to Dragonlance. I never got into it myself, but apparently it is an epic tale of good v evil. Those tend to inspire the youth.  :)

Maybe Hasbro stepped in when they saw the law suit?

Quote from: sureshot on December 22, 2020, 09:35:03 AM
...
Another "diversity" hire I see no clue to what they are doing yet they checked off a few boxes on the diversity and inclusivity list. Funny how his novel is not "problamatic" yet suddenly the new manuscript is. Nice to see Wotc bend the knee for the right reasons for once.

What made it even more rich was that they replaced two women with two men! And yeah, I'm sure that guy still has his job, because "same team". So his novel is not seen as "problematic".

What's viewed as truly unforgivable is when Hickman and Weis 'race flipped' native American culture in DL. This is used to point out the fundamental racism inherent in the DL setting. Because 'race flipping' a POC to someone with Caucasian features is unforgivable cultural appropriation bad-wrong-fun. This view is strongly held by the same people who love the play "Hamilton", and think that Idris Elba should have been the next James Bond, and if you don't think that is a good idea it is because you are a racist.

Quote from: Shasarak on December 22, 2020, 04:00:36 PM
Maybe Hasbro stepped in when they saw the law suit?

I agree with your reading of the entrails. WOTC has seemed particularly fond of playing contract games lately that have gotten them sued.

And this is the only one so far where they haven't stuck to their guns.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 22, 2020, 04:52:17 PM

What made it even more rich was that they replaced two women with two men! And yeah, I'm sure that guy still has his job, because "same team". So his novel is not seen as "problematic".

Wait, what did I miss?

What two women?  Margaret Weiss and who else?

I think I missed part of this story.

Quote from: Two Crows on December 23, 2020, 07:53:44 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 22, 2020, 04:52:17 PM

What made it even more rich was that they replaced two women with two men! And yeah, I'm sure that guy still has his job, because "same team". So his novel is not seen as "problematic".

Wait, what did I miss?

What two women?  Margaret Weiss and who else?

I think I missed part of this story.

The original editorial team that did the approvals for the new DL novels Hickman and Weis were writing was made up of two naturally born women who were long time WOTC employees.

Hickman and Weis had minimal to Zero approval issues when working with this editorial team at WOTC.

Then after the first novel was approved by WOTC, and sent to the publisher to be readied for publication, WOTC switched personnel.

The editorial team made up of two middle aged naturally born women, was replaced by two men. One of which wrote what WOTC has evidently deemed a non-problematic novel about some middle aged guy sleeping with 16 year old girls in Amsterdam.

A 'diversity' hire?

You decide...

That's when the shit show started. The manuscript that was previously approved for print now had to to go through a series of massive re-writes because the 'new' editorial team was able to zero in on tons of 'problematic' content in the books that the previous team of middle aged naturally born women somehow missed.

Evidently no amount of re-writes could make the new DL novel woke enough. So this new team along with WOTC decided it would be best if they stop approvals altogether as a back door way to terminate their licensing agreement with Hickman and Weis.

Hickman and Weis are not un-poor, nor are they some internet rando's who quake in fear at case and desist letters.

So they sued the fuckers. For millions.

Evidently someone in the WOTC/HASBRO sphere possesses brain cells, and has made some kind of agreement with Hickman and Weis.

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 22, 2020, 09:58:27 AM
That said, I would not mind a return to Dragonlance. I never got into it myself, but apparently it is an epic tale of good v evil. Those tend to inspire the youth.  :)

   It looks like it on the surface, and is in the game material, but if you go deeper into the novels that have come to define the setting, it's more about self-knowledge/self-realization, the need for everyone to follow their own path, and the moral superiority of the marginalized over the inevitably corrupt privileged.

  In short, it is absolutely perfect for WotC if they just realized it.  ;)

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 23, 2020, 09:27:13 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 22, 2020, 09:58:27 AM
That said, I would not mind a return to Dragonlance. I never got into it myself, but apparently it is an epic tale of good v evil. Those tend to inspire the youth.  :)

   It looks like it on the surface, and is in the game material, but if you go deeper into the novels that have come to define the setting, it's more about self-knowledge/self-realization, the need for everyone to follow their own path, and the moral superiority of the marginalized over the inevitably corrupt privileged.

  In short, it is absolutely perfect for WotC if they just realized it.  ;)

That would require them to acknowledge someone outside their little circles wrote something useful.

This is the exact same idiocy plaguing BBC America's adaptation of 'The Watch'. Pratchett tackled progressive issues with style, grace, and subtlety -- slipping things by and surprising readers. So of course, the BBCA adaptation is a godforsaken atrocity, a bad parody of the books.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to see WotC butcher Dragonlance the same way.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 23, 2020, 09:27:13 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 22, 2020, 09:58:27 AM
That said, I would not mind a return to Dragonlance. I never got into it myself, but apparently it is an epic tale of good v evil. Those tend to inspire the youth.  :)

   It looks like it on the surface, and is in the game material, but if you go deeper into the novels that have come to define the setting, it's more about self-knowledge/self-realization, the need for everyone to follow their own path, and the moral superiority of the marginalized over the inevitably corrupt privileged.

  In short, it is absolutely perfect for WotC if they just realized it.  ;)

Onyx Paths's 5E and Pathfinder treatment of the Scarred Lands setting is similar.

Either they failed to see the subtlely and ambiguity of the treatment of the Titanspawn (monster ) races in the 3E setting, or they assumed their audience was too thick to get it - or a little of both.  So now we have 'redeemed' monster races, which have been basically been reduced to furries. 

Really this is the biggest change in values over the last generation in media and popular culture.  It isn't really that the politics has changed - for most part these industries were as dominated by left wing people then as they are now- it's that there's been a long war on any sense of subtlety and ambiguity.  There's an ever increasing lack of respect for the audiences ability to decide things for themselves and therefore an increasing dumbing down of content.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 23, 2020, 09:27:13 PM
   It looks like it on the surface, and is in the game material, but if you go deeper into the novels that have come to define the setting, it's more about self-knowledge/self-realization, the need for everyone to follow their own path, and the moral superiority of the marginalized over the inevitably corrupt privileged.

  In short, it is absolutely perfect for WotC if they just realized it.  ;)

Seconded.

Except the SJWs seem to be the ones Wotc both listens too and also wants to hire.

Not to mention if you listen to the same SJws. If you White you don't get a say what should be in the novels. Even if you are a huge fan. Going to other places like Enworld is an eye opener to the cesspits of SJws. Many of them should never play out of their gaming circles or they will be thrown out of most new gaming groups. Imagine some rando SJW coming into one group telling them that can't play certain character concepts and if one does they are irredeemably racist. It's not going to sit well with most normal player groups.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 23, 2020, 10:38:17 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 23, 2020, 09:27:13 PM

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 22, 2020, 09:58:27 AM
That said, I would not mind a return to Dragonlance. I never got into it myself, but apparently it is an epic tale of good v evil. Those tend to inspire the youth.  :)

   It looks like it on the surface, and is in the game material, but if you go deeper into the novels that have come to define the setting, it's more about self-knowledge/self-realization, the need for everyone to follow their own path, and the moral superiority of the marginalized over the inevitably corrupt privileged.

  In short, it is absolutely perfect for WotC if they just realized it.  ;)

That would require them to acknowledge someone outside their little circles wrote something useful.

This is the exact same idiocy plaguing BBC America's adaptation of 'The Watch'. Pratchett tackled progressive issues with style, grace, and subtlety -- slipping things by and surprising readers. So of course, the BBCA adaptation is a godforsaken atrocity, a bad parody of the books.

It would not surprise me in the slightest to see WotC butcher Dragonlance the same way.

:crankyoldguy:
WOTC butchers every fictional property they touch.  GH, DS, DL, FR, RL, GW, etc. I think the last time I was impressed with the way they handled something they bought was the 1998 Greyhawk  The Adventure Begins and the Player's Guide (which were already in works at TSR). Then SKR screwed the pooch with his piss poor adventures and "contributions" to the setting.

and the rest is history

Edit- Not that I'm a huge fan, I read the book 20+ years ago- but I recall them doing a good job with The Wheel of Time, RPG, short lived as it was.

Quote from: Jaeger on December 23, 2020, 08:23:50 PM

Quote from: Two Crows on December 23, 2020, 07:53:44 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on December 22, 2020, 04:52:17 PM

What made it even more rich was that they replaced two women with two men! And yeah, I'm sure that guy still has his job, because "same team". So his novel is not seen as "problematic".

Wait, what did I miss?

What two women?  Margaret Weiss and who else?

I think I missed part of this story.

The original editorial team that did the approvals for the new DL novels Hickman and Weis were writing was made up of two naturally born women who were long time WOTC employees.

Ah.  Now I see.
Thanks.


It sounds like the new people wanted to replace the manuscript with a womanscript? 

Am I right?

HA!










... is this thing on?

So. The lawsuit was cancelled without prejudice. Seems Hasbro/WotC paid 'em off.

Is this bad for the industry?

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 25, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
So. The lawsuit was cancelled without prejudice. Seems Hasbro/WotC paid 'em off.

Is this bad for the industry?

The wording makes it sound bad, but what that translates into is "We dropped the lawsuit without conditions."  [Presumably due to good news/settlement.]  "We reserve the right to bring the lawsuit again if need be."  If the lawsuit brought pressure for WotC to settle or abide by their contract, then it did its job.

Quote from: zircher on December 25, 2020, 01:00:31 PM

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 25, 2020, 12:36:03 PM
So. The lawsuit was cancelled without prejudice. Seems Hasbro/WotC paid 'em off.

Is this bad for the industry?

The wording makes it sound bad, but what that translates into is "We dropped the lawsuit without conditions."  [Presumably due to good news/settlement.]  "We reserve the right to bring the lawsuit again if need be."  If the lawsuit brought pressure for WotC to settle or abide by their contract, then it did its job.

Yeah. Hasbro has deep pockets. My concern is freelancers contracted by Hasbro being thrown to the wind when WotC wants to aquire exclusive rights to their work. It's evil.

Expect WotC to advance a Dragonlance setting, because they bought the rights in this presumed settlement. Of course, the setting will be SJW-safe.

Quote from: Theory of Games on December 25, 2020, 01:24:23 PM
Yeah. Hasbro has deep pockets. My concern is freelancers contracted by Hasbro being thrown to the wind when WotC wants to aquire exclusive rights to their work. It's evil.

Expect WotC to advance a Dragonlance setting, because they bought the rights in this presumed settlement. Of course, the setting will be SJW-safe.

Apparently WOTC does not have as much hold over Dragonlance as one would think otherwise they would have just muscled their way forward with the plans to make Dragonlance the setting for 5e, starting from the beginning, but changing the events. That did not happen after W&H got wind of it and the writer for it learned they were not on board for this.

WOTC really wants to use the Dragonlance setting as it would allow them to bypass Solomon's stranglehold on any D&D movies, including animations. But. He has to actually make D&D movies or lose the rights. And he has not done one since Book of Vile Darkness in 2012 far as I know. 8 years ago.

Greetings!

When I was looking over the legal thing, I think I recall Weiss and Hickman suing WOTC for 10 million dollars, plus all legal fees and expenses, and maybe more.

Seeing that WOTC settled without otherwise going to court--I imagine that Weiss and Hickman were paid very well, possibly a little less than what they demanded, but also potentially more. No matter what, though, the price tag that WOTC was forced to pay Weiss and Hickman was undoubtedly in the millions of dollars.

My guess is WOTC paid up 10-15 million dollars to Weiss and Hickman, and agreed that they wouldn't touch Dragonlance, and please, Weiss and Hickman, enjoy your money and please don't continue to fuck is in court, public opinion, and marketing circles.

WOTC really fucked this up royally, and any court case would likely go very poorly for them. Weiss and Hickman are very nice and professional people, they have been authors and designers in the fantasy and gaming industry for *decades*--going back to the early 1980's. They are the wrong people to be fucking with. They have written *dozens* of game modules and books--and sold *millions* of fantasy books, worldwide, again, for *decades*. Why the people at WOTC somehow couldn't think, "Hmmm...you know, we need to ensure we treat these folks here really, really well. Give them the royal treatment in everything!" is just mind boggling. When you consider Weiss and Hickman's reputations--pretty much anything they put their stamp on is a guaranteed profit maker, *instantly* by a huge margin, if only because of millions of nostalgic, legacy fans that buy virtually anything with their names on it, sight unseen. Majorly stupid move on the part of WOTC.

Just more evidence that SJW's fuck up everything they get involved with or touch. More fuckery and failures need to jam the industry though. Good, I say. Go broke, get fucked, over and over again, until someone with some damned sense comes to the realization that SJW's are a plague and will absolutely ruin any business you are involved with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on December 27, 2020, 01:21:44 AM
Greetings!

When I was looking over the legal thing, I think I recall Weiss and Hickman suing WOTC for 10 million dollars, plus all legal fees and expenses, and maybe more.

Seeing that WOTC settled without otherwise going to court--I imagine that Weiss and Hickman were paid very well, possibly a little less than what they demanded, but also potentially more. No matter what, though, the price tag that WOTC was forced to pay Weiss and Hickman was undoubtedly in the millions of dollars.

My guess is WOTC paid up 10-15 million dollars to Weiss and Hickman, and agreed that they wouldn't touch Dragonlance, and please, Weiss and Hickman, enjoy your money and please don't continue to fuck is in court, public opinion, and marketing circles.

WOTC really fucked this up royally, and any court case would likely go very poorly for them. Weiss and Hickman are very nice and professional people, they have been authors and designers in the fantasy and gaming industry for *decades*--going back to the early 1980's. They are the wrong people to be fucking with. They have written *dozens* of game modules and books--and sold *millions* of fantasy books, worldwide, again, for *decades*. Why the people at WOTC somehow couldn't think, "Hmmm...you know, we need to ensure we treat these folks here really, really well. Give them the royal treatment in everything!" is just mind boggling. When you consider Weiss and Hickman's reputations--pretty much anything they put their stamp on is a guaranteed profit maker, *instantly* by a huge margin, if only because of millions of nostalgic, legacy fans that buy virtually anything with their names on it, sight unseen. Majorly stupid move on the part of WOTC.

Just more evidence that SJW's fuck up everything they get involved with or touch. More fuckery and failures need to jam the industry though. Good, I say. Go broke, get fucked, over and over again, until someone with some damned sense comes to the realization that SJW's are a plague and will absolutely ruin any business you are involved with.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The problem is that SJWs are, fundamentally, narcissists. They are always the heroes of their own story.  So the moron editors (the new ones) couldn't even conceive that Weiss and Hickman were of any importance, because they're not me.  Even when the issues are nominally about others, with SJWs, it's always about them.  Other people only exist for the purpose of villains, or to virtue signal to or about.  It's an intellectual blind spot for them, and their greatest weakness.  This is why they make the same mistakes over and over again.  They literally are not capable of seeing their conduct from anyone else's perspective.

Quote from: Omega on December 26, 2020, 11:52:39 PM
Apparently WOTC does not have as much hold over Dragonlance as one would think otherwise they would have just muscled their way forward with the plans to make Dragonlance the setting for 5e, starting from the beginning, but changing the events. That did not happen after W&H got wind of it and the writer for it learned they were not on board for this.

  Legally, WotC has full and clear right to Dragonlance--it was done as work-for-hire on TSR's dime, so they've got total control. However, the politics and public relations are a different matter--attempts to move forward without W&H's blessing have proven to be cult favorites at best, generally rejected at worst.

Quote from: SHARK on December 27, 2020, 01:21:44 AM
Greetings!

When I was looking over the legal thing, I think I recall Weiss and Hickman suing WOTC for 10 million dollars, plus all legal fees and expenses, and maybe more.

Seeing that WOTC settled without otherwise going to court--I imagine that Weiss and Hickman were paid very well, possibly a little less than what they demanded, but also potentially more. No matter what, though, the price tag that WOTC was forced to pay Weiss and Hickman was undoubtedly in the millions of dollars.

My guess is WOTC paid up 10-15 million dollars to Weiss and Hickman, and agreed that they wouldn't touch Dragonlance, and please, Weiss and Hickman, enjoy your money and please don't continue to fuck is in court, public opinion, and marketing circles.

They were very likely paid far FAR less than you're predicting. The sum of the lawsuit was just an exaggerated number to get WOTCs attention. They implied as much all along. The settlement is very likely to just continue the project as intended before and a small sum for damages between the time they stopped and the re-start date.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 27, 2020, 11:15:37 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 27, 2020, 01:21:44 AM
Greetings!

When I was looking over the legal thing, I think I recall Weiss and Hickman suing WOTC for 10 million dollars, plus all legal fees and expenses, and maybe more.

Seeing that WOTC settled without otherwise going to court--I imagine that Weiss and Hickman were paid very well, possibly a little less than what they demanded, but also potentially more. No matter what, though, the price tag that WOTC was forced to pay Weiss and Hickman was undoubtedly in the millions of dollars.

My guess is WOTC paid up 10-15 million dollars to Weiss and Hickman, and agreed that they wouldn't touch Dragonlance, and please, Weiss and Hickman, enjoy your money and please don't continue to fuck is in court, public opinion, and marketing circles.

They were very likely paid far FAR less than you're predicting. The sum of the lawsuit was just an exaggerated number to get WOTCs attention. They implied as much all along. The settlement is very likely to just continue the project as intended before and a small sum for damages between the time they stopped and the re-start date.

+1 for this... a settled amount and action plan would be one that satisfies the conditional probability of a win... under Bayes' Theorem, this likely would be between 1/8th and 1/3rd of the $10m... in this case, much would depend on the relative degrees of discovery, attitude about the repugnant action, etc. I'd betcha things didn't look good for WOTC, so the W&H maybe walked with $2.5m plus right of further suit.

Also, consider Tracy's posts on facebook, where he hints that work is actually moving forward.

We may yet see their new trilogy come out under WotC's brand after all.

A little off topic, but related as it shows that working for WotC is a two faced shit show.
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sra9pq (https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sra9pq)

There is also a recent Wired article that shakes its finger at WotC for not being woke enough.  I won't bother linking to that.

Quote from: zircher on January 03, 2021, 11:51:39 AM
A little off topic, but related as it shows that working for WotC is a two faced shit show.
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sra9pq (https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sra9pq)

There is also a recent Wired article that shakes its finger at WotC for not being woke enough.  I won't bother linking to that.

I remember that nonsense.

WOTC was gonna get burned no matter what they did with that guy...

Direct quite from your link:

Quote from: non-binary sperg on January 03, 2021, 11:51:39 AMI took the job for two reasons. The first was for the dream. To escape poverty doing what I love, writing and making games. The second was to make D&D welcoming to the millions who are scorned by it.

Millions who are scorned by it?

Yes, you heard it straight, or rather non-binarily from this guy: D&D Scorns Millions of people.

Millions. With Scorn.

There is simply nothing left to be said.

It is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about RPG's with someone so mentally damaged they actually believe that crap.

People like this are just one or two personnel changes away from being put in charge of D&D.

And it will happen. It is only a matter of when, not if.

I believe that we will see this shift within the next 4 years.

.

Ya know, I have the 5E core books. Read them. Thought about getting in on some games, but the whole thing doesn't inspire me enough to get any traction. When you get down to it, I really don't care what SJWs and their ilk do to the game. It's similar in nature to a pack of mental patients having their way with a bed-ridden patient... I really don't want to see that.

So, I've shifted focus on to other games that pique my interest a little more, namely WHFRP 4E and that strange little game Zweihander Grim & Perilous. I have both games coming in the mail this week and I'm sort of stoked about reading them... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me. We'll see.  Maybe it won't get fucked up by angry and self-loathing people who are, quite honestly, beneath me on the food chain.

I saw this and immediately thought of management at WotC.  :-)

(https://joshuawright.net/images/picture%20-%20slackwyrm%20712.jpg?crc=3847288534)

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AM... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people...

:o

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 04, 2021, 11:04:23 AM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AM... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people...

:o

^ +1

Quote from: JeffB on January 04, 2021, 11:11:35 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 04, 2021, 11:04:23 AM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AM... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people...

:o

^ +1

;D

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AM
... Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me. We'll see.  Maybe it won't get fucked up by angry and self-loathing people who are, quite honestly, beneath me on the food chain.

Wherever you bought Zweihander from, you should return it immediately.

Angry and self-loathing SJW is the perfect description of its creator.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 04, 2021, 04:47:10 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AM
... Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me. We'll see.  Maybe it won't get fucked up by angry and self-loathing people who are, quite honestly, beneath me on the food chain.

Wherever you bought Zweihander from, you should return it immediately.

Angry and self-loathing SJW is the perfect description of its creator.

Really?  :o

So it's a "woke" version of the old WarHammer rpg?

WTF?  WHY pick that game if you wanted something with a more SJW-vibe?


Was somebody already doing a F.A.T.A.L. update?

Quote from: Two Crows on January 05, 2021, 07:18:47 PM
So it's a "woke" version of the old WarHammer rpg?

The game itself is not particularly woke; it's simply a cleaned-up and organized version of rules designed to reproduce the experience of old-school WFRP.  The occasional woke note only creeps in here and there with the rare boilerplate paragraph about "your PC can be whatever/whoever xie wants to be / there are no sex-based modifiers" etc. -- stuff that looked easily ignorable when flipping through the game.

The mindset of the creator I can't speak to, on the other hand, and I certainly understand more than I did the mindset that says not to give money to people who hate you, even if what you're buying from them doesn't itself embody that hatred.

I had read it was a pretty good representation of the 1st/2nd Ed Warhammer stuff, too.

Are there supplements?  If there are, are they any good?

Quote from: Two Crows on January 05, 2021, 09:17:03 PMAre there supplements?  If there are, are they any good?

There are a few; other than Main Gauche, which I've looked through on shop bookshelves, I can't speak to their quality -- I wouldn't know how much fun a module is to play, for example.

Production value on Main Gauche and the main corebook is excellent, I can confirm that, and if you liked Warhammer (which I didn't, altogether -- I'm just not a grimdark dude by inclination) you will probably like the stuff in there.

So my books came in the mail two days ago, but I haven't had a chance to do more than just page through them. I got the Core book, the Player's Handbook, and Main Gauche. Actually, from what I gathered from it, it's pretty interesting... sort of an anti-D&D making GoT look like that terrible D&D movie from the '90s.

When I read them more indepth, I'll make a review thread for everyone to throw shit at.

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AMI'm sort of stoked about reading them... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me.

Nice try Daniel, you're not fooling anyone.

Quote from: Snark Knight on January 07, 2021, 08:24:48 AM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AMI'm sort of stoked about reading them... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me.

Nice try Daniel, you're not fooling anyone.

OH NOEZ. I has been discovered!!!  :D

QuoteThe game itself is not particularly woke; it's simply a cleaned-up and organized version of rules designed to reproduce the experience of old-school WFRP.  The occasional woke note only creeps in here and there with the rare boilerplate paragraph about "your PC can be whatever/whoever xie wants to be / there are no sex-based modifiers" etc. -- stuff that looked easily ignorable when flipping through the game.

And Danny D. Vixen, creator of 2-hander get really bad rep, not only by being very woke SJW on Twitter - because that's like your usual creator but by being extremely toxic in the internet - in terms of self-promotion, and basic relations with potential customers.

But true if anything - 2hander can be ever less woke than Warhammer, as it's way more humorless and dark, while WHF in RPG was originally - and 4e returned to it's roots - quite comedic and grotesque in its grimdarkness. Vixen decided to keep orkz fungi while also making them pigs and rapists who must rape to spread fungi. So much for Da Boyz.

QuoteI got the Core book, the Player's Handbook, and Main Gauche.

But choice bro - Player's Handbook is 100% excerpts from Core Book XD

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 10, 2021, 06:50:18 PM

But choice bro - Player's Handbook is 100% excerpts from Core Book XD

But cash bro... mine, not yours. ;)

It should be "bad" and I should stop reading planned sentences aloud before writing them down.

Now sure cash is yours, if you were aware of it - ok, if you were not - bad choice.

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AMI have both games coming in the mail this week and I'm sort of stoked about reading them... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me. We'll see.  Maybe it won't get fucked up by angry and self-loathing people who are, quite honestly, beneath me on the food chain.

Well if the same mental neighborhood you share is spamshilling your stolen game, doxing people who call you out on your behavior, and weaponizing SJWs to remove your competition. And other wonderfully low acts.

Quote from: Omega on January 11, 2021, 09:02:51 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 04, 2021, 02:23:47 AMI have both games coming in the mail this week and I'm sort of stoked about reading them... mainly Zweihander because it seems to have been made by sane people... or at least people who share the same mental neighborhood with me. We'll see.  Maybe it won't get fucked up by angry and self-loathing people who are, quite honestly, beneath me on the food chain.

Well if the same mental neighborhood you share is spamshilling your stolen game, doxing people who call you out on your behavior, and weaponizing SJWs to remove your competition. And other wonderfully low acts.

Far out.

Listen, I didn't know any of these points, don't know any of these points, and don't care to know about any of these points.

What I'm looking at are products which seem to be put together by an individual(s) who write stuff I would like to use. I might even like to game with these fuckers. Dunno. I have looked at Fox's Twitter; don't care for his politics, but then I didn't care for EGG's religion, his attempted financial cornholing of Arneson, or the way he did his first wife... but I liked his products.

And I have a sneaky feeling that if Fox got a peek into my personal politics and philosophies, he'd write a goddamned supplement about that.  But I keep that sort of stuff to myself... until it's far too late.

So, what I'm looking at are some RPG products that are professionally made, well constructed, well laid out, full of indepth rules for role play with many options, developed over time with several play testers... and I'm sure there are some of them who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire, but whatever...

Now, I'm not shilling for the dude. Just stating my opinion. I'm not sure if I have ever read anything you have written. Have I?

Have you?

So, reviewing your post, I see this: in one hand, I have some anom slinging shit in a post to someone he doesn't know, and in the other hand I have actual physical products created by someone who can fucking come up with the goods.

Take a wild guess which way I'll lean.

Lastly, as to weaponizing SJWs... my view on that is: it's better to be used than useless. ;)

Well I sincerely doubt you're the Fox, but yeah as he has very annoying custom of self-promoting under fake accounts, anyone praising Zweihander is suspected.

Then I can agree - some of Zweihander concepts are well done and thought out - like Peril as aditional aspect to Wounds, others like his Order - Chaos dualities are meh, 75% things are just Warhammer with new names anyway.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 12, 2021, 06:58:05 PM
Well I sincerely doubt you're the Fox, but yeah as he has very annoying custom of self-promoting under fake accounts, anyone praising Zweihander is suspected.

Then I can agree - some of Zweihander concepts are well done and thought out - like Peril as aditional aspect to Wounds, others like his Order - Chaos dualities are meh, 75% things are just Warhammer with new names anyway.

Oh wait, are you serious? There are actually people here suspecting I might be Fox?

I'm going to have fun here. :D

Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 07:23:41 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 12, 2021, 06:58:05 PM
Well I sincerely doubt you're the Fox, but yeah as he has very annoying custom of self-promoting under fake accounts, anyone praising Zweihander is suspected.

Then I can agree - some of Zweihander concepts are well done and thought out - like Peril as aditional aspect to Wounds, others like his Order - Chaos dualities are meh, 75% things are just Warhammer with new names anyway.

Oh wait, are you serious? There are actually people here suspecting I might be Fox?

I'm going to have fun here. :D

Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/118F7nEgnxapYQ/200.gif)

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 07:23:41 PM
Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

Hi, I'm Troy Mcclure.

You Might Remember Me From Such Public Service Videos As Designated Drivers: The Lifesaving Nerds And Phony Tornado Alarms Reduce Readiness. I'm Here Today To Give You The Skinny On Shoplifting, Thereby Completing My Plea Bargain With The Good People At Foot Locker Of Beverly Hills

Quote from: Shasarak on January 12, 2021, 09:06:09 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 07:23:41 PM
Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

Hi, I'm Troy Mcclure.

You Might Remember Me From Such Public Service Videos As Designated Drivers: The Lifesaving Nerds And Phony Tornado Alarms Reduce Readiness. I'm Here Today To Give You The Skinny On Shoplifting, Thereby Completing My Plea Bargain With The Good People At Foot Locker Of Beverly Hills

Sweet, can I have your autograph?

Sign right between my boobs.

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 09:40:38 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on January 12, 2021, 09:06:09 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 07:23:41 PM
Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

Hi, I'm Troy Mcclure.

You Might Remember Me From Such Public Service Videos As Designated Drivers: The Lifesaving Nerds And Phony Tornado Alarms Reduce Readiness. I'm Here Today To Give You The Skinny On Shoplifting, Thereby Completing My Plea Bargain With The Good People At Foot Locker Of Beverly Hills

Sweet, can I have your autograph?

Sign right between my boobs.

Sure, just send me 1 Bitcoin and I will sign away.

Quote from: Shasarak on January 12, 2021, 09:47:30 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 09:40:38 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on January 12, 2021, 09:06:09 PM

Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 12, 2021, 07:23:41 PM
Just for the record, and to make shit freakishly clear for those slow on the uptake: I'm James C. Boney from Little Rock. I'm one of the editors for OSRIC RPG, and I have several OSR works published under XRP, Goblinoid Games, and Mythmere Games.  I know there are a few posters here who know me from Knights and Knaves.

Hi, I'm Troy Mcclure.

You Might Remember Me From Such Public Service Videos As Designated Drivers: The Lifesaving Nerds And Phony Tornado Alarms Reduce Readiness. I'm Here Today To Give You The Skinny On Shoplifting, Thereby Completing My Plea Bargain With The Good People At Foot Locker Of Beverly Hills

Sweet, can I have your autograph?

Sign right between my boobs.

Sure, just send me 1 Bitcoin and I will sign away.

(https://i.imgur.com/hxUOlhA.jpg)