Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 21, 2020, 12:31:34 PM

Quote from: Omega on October 21, 2020, 11:53:24 AM
The execs were also rather appalled at just how bad the 4e fans were. With RPGnet as the prime example after WOTCs own forum. Their antics during the 5e playtest apparently cemented that view.

  There was definitely misbehavior among 4E fans during the playtest and after release, but as for RPGNet %u2026 given that they've swung full steam ahead to backing 5E (as they see it) and banned many of the 4E fans, and seeing their behavior and the attitude of the overall fanbase since the 5E launch, I'm thinking of Matthew 12:43-45.

Strange, I want to play 4E for some reason.

Yeah, honestly, metaplot ruins settings, I'm firmly convinced. Or, at least, metaplot that tries to have big, huge, shattering changes in it. Shadowrun's 1:1 time progression metaplot mostly worked, until the big End-of-3E crash completely rewrote the world. World of Darkness mostly made it work... mostly. But generally speaking, metaplot is just obnoxious. And when you get into settings that just have one world-reshaping calamity after another, like the TSR / WotC properties do? It's maddening. Even Ravenloft, which was almost explicitly build to allow for it, suffers from it.

Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Greetings!

Ahh, but why do you think that SJW's *LOVE* Kender and Tinker Gnomes so much?

And how did Kender and Tinker Gnomes come about? Spoil away, my friend. I'm not going to buy dozens of Dragonlance novels to find out. I was never interested in the Dragonlance world very much, as I have always had my world of Thandor. Interestingly, though, I bought a few Dragonlance modules and a several of the novels--a decent enough set of stories, adventures, and modules--but even with a minimal level of exposure, plus what I saw in other game groups I was in at the time--I also grew a passionate hatred and contempt for the Kender and the Tinker Gnomes, in particular.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Shark it ws due to the Graygem of Gargath housing the progenitor god who created everything yet was one of those I create only to destroy types. So they locked him into the gem. Woke SJWs ignore the part about the Graygem cursing existing races into Kenger, Gully Dwarves and Tinker Gnomes. At first it was a major artifact then we find out it holds a god that easily create and destroy.

Then again those wackos think Charm spells and potions are the same thing as sexual assault so their is no reasoning with them. I can't engage with someone who thinks like that. So what a sleep spell is also a form of sexual assault because I am taking away the affected creature choice of whether to sleep or not.

Shark a helpful link: https://lexicon.dragonlancenexus.com/index.php/Graygem_of_Gargath

Mind you I kind of understand the dislike for Gully Dwarves I mean their main skill was grovelling with the hopes that the target is so disgusted at the pathetic display as to ignore the Gully Dwarf. 

Shark your wrong about the races they despise them simply because they hate their origin story. Want to set off one of them ask them their true feelings on any of the three races.

Quote from: SHARK on October 25, 2020, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

It's crazy and insane to see how the Woke and SJW fans are so mentally fixated on Kenders, Tinker Gnomes and Kender. Their is a reason why those races came about and I won't go into a another spoiler. These people imo ruin everything they touch. Thankfully they are too stupid and insipid to hide their true feelings and would be banned at my table at most other tables. Imagine one of those losers coming into one of your campaigns that had Drow and Dwarves and going on an anti-racism rant.

Greetings!

Ahh, but why do you think that SJW's *LOVE* Kender and Tinker Gnomes so much?

And how did Kender and Tinker Gnomes come about? Spoil away, my friend. I'm not going to buy dozens of Dragonlance novels to find out. I was never interested in the Dragonlance world very much, as I have always had my world of Thandor. Interestingly, though, I bought a few Dragonlance modules and a several of the novels--a decent enough set of stories, adventures, and modules--but even with a minimal level of exposure, plus what I saw in other game groups I was in at the time--I also grew a passionate hatred and contempt for the Kender and the Tinker Gnomes, in particular.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 11:19:26 AM
Does anyone know why Weis and Hickman destroyed their setting with Dragons of a Summer Flame. That novel soured me on everything Dragonlance for almost a decade. Between both claiming they were not responsible because Wotc told them to write the novel. To warning  Major spoiler ahead removing everything that made the world unique. To at the end of the book turning Krynn into Earth. No magic, gods, dragons or anything.

   I followed the Fifth Age from its inception, consider one of the designers an online friend, and have delved deeply--and everything I have heard is that Summer Flame was written by Weis & Hickman without any strong direction from TSR as to content. They wanted to make it into a trilogy with spinoff material, and TSR stuck with the 'one book under the contract,' but the direction is all theirs. There are disputes as to whether it was meant as an ending or just an attempt to forcibly turn the page of the setting, but nothing has been said to indicate that TSR set the books' direction.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators. Kender I have mixed feelings about and both authors deserve all the scorn and ridicule from the fans about the race. The whole "we don't like thieves in the setting so lets include a bunch of natural born kleptomaniacs without any sense of personal property" was bound to cause issues at the table. I can count on one hand the amount of times Kenders were played and run properly at most tables.

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators. Kender I have mixed feelings about and both authors deserve all the scorn and ridicule from the fans about the race. The whole "we don't like thieves in the setting so lets include a bunch of natural born kleptomaniacs without any sense of personal property" was bound to cause issues at the table. I can count on one hand the amount of times Kenders were played and run properly at most tables.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on October 25, 2020, 02:08:18 PM
   I followed the Fifth Age from its inception, consider one of the designers an online friend, and have delved deeply--and everything I have heard is that Summer Flame was written by Weis & Hickman without any strong direction from TSR as to content. They wanted to make it into a trilogy with spinoff material, and TSR stuck with the 'one book under the contract,' but the direction is all theirs. There are disputes as to whether it was meant as an ending or just an attempt to forcibly turn the page of the setting, but nothing has been said to indicate that TSR set the books' direction.

From what I heard online and outside of it I hear conflicting stories who is at fault. That novel killed the setting imo. It's one thing to nuke the setting. It's another to create a bunch of new characters in the setting to only then kill them off in one book. The authors blame Wotc. Wotc blames the authors I think both are to blame. Every now and then I reread the core novels and it's the only one each tim that leaves me with a WTF moment and making me want to throw it across the room.

Quote from: sureshot on October 25, 2020, 03:35:04 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on October 25, 2020, 01:39:15 PM
The Time of the Dragon boxed set gave us the version of the Tinker Gnomes untouched by the curse that makes them addle-brained idiots. These were actually pretty cool with fairly effective mechanical, clockwork, and steam-powered technologies. They also had a group of warriors that reminded me of the Jem'Hadar from ST:DS9 as they held funeral rites before battle and went to war to reclaim their lives. Overall, I liked Taladas so much better than Ansalon.

I heard mixed review of the Tales of the Lance Dragonlance set where the flavor of the 1E Hardcover was removed. The whole thing about Tinker Gnomes whose inventions worked properly considered to be insane by the majority was stupid. Don't get me wrong it's I find the background very flavorful just some really WTF moments from the setting creators.

That's how it was on Ansalon, the continent where the main Dragonlance books took place. Time of the Dragon covered the continent of Taladas on the other side of Krynn. That's where the not-idiotic variant of the Tinker Gnomes was much more common. They also had a Roman-ish place run by minotaurs and a valley where the local kender were not characterized by fearlessness & kleptomania but instead by paranoia and a belief in preemptively stealing/destroying potential opponents' weapons or other instruments that could hurt them. I liked Taladas enough that I wanted to forget about the other side of the world.

Quote from: Innocent Smith on October 25, 2020, 04:58:33 AM
Strange, I want to play 4E for some reason.

Get 4e D&D Gamma World. Its a mess for other reasons, but at least makes 4e more like D&D rahter than an MMO emulator or board game.

Quote from: Bruwulf on October 25, 2020, 10:45:54 AM
Yeah, honestly, metaplot ruins settings, I'm firmly convinced. Or, at least, metaplot that tries to have big, huge, shattering changes in it.

Metaplot isnt the problem. Its metaplot done badly. Which has plagued Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms for a long long time.

Poor execution, huge changes, and/or too frequent changes. FR and DL both have been through four or more at this point. The rest are just tales of adventurers and wold in motion elements.

While it was not a great book. I think the 5e guide to FR did it right as its overall just world in motion stuff. Regions have recovered from the spellplague, or are rebuilding from the last wave of orcs that devastated some kindgoms... again... and some other changes mostly small. Compare that to things like the Spellplague and the Test of the Gods and whatever other disasters.

One thing I do not like about Weis and Hickman is their incessant claims that they are the biggest thing ever. If I am not mistaken their legal suit even makes a claim that Dragonlance rivals Tolkein in popularity. And they were claiming that way back even so wouldnt surprise me at all.

Thanks HD

We may disagree on much yet appreciate the information.

From the looks of it Taladas seems to be Krynn done right. Unless I am mistaken did the Minotaurs not have a similar empire on both sides of Krynn?

Quote from: Omega on October 25, 2020, 07:26:14 PM
One thing I do not like about Weis and Hickman is their incessant claims that they are the biggest thing ever. If I am not mistaken their legal suit even makes a claim that Dragonlance rivals Tolkein in popularity. And they were claiming that way back even so wouldnt surprise me at all.

Seconded

That is the only thing in the lawsuit that they tend to inflate the value of their works. I like Dragonlance yet it's not in the same league as Tolkien.