Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 15, 2021, 07:32:57 AM

Quote from: "S'mon"....and certainly in cultures where women routinely go topless, breasts are not a major sexual attractor....

That is like saying that legs are not a major attractor in this culture because women are habitually naked from the upper thighs down. Quite the contrary, females in this culture use their legs for sexual display, which is an instinctive impulse shared with other primates.

Breasts evolved in human females most likely to be attractive to males, because in most primitive societies females have to compete with each other for husbands beginning at puberty. Humans and bonobos are the only animals I can think of that develop breasts at puberty instead of when they are pregnant. Large breasts in young females is indicative of fertility. Males are designed by evolution to be able to discern female health and fertility.

Quote from: "Samsquantch"They seem to forget that phobia means fear....

"phobia" also means to be repulsed by something, such as hydrophobicity in chemistry.

Women aren't chopping off their legs in droves to avoid being sexualized. They are chopping off their perfectly healthy breasts, though.

Fair enough, you got me!

Quote from: Cloyer Bulse on February 15, 2021, 07:32:57 AM

Quote from: "S'mon"....and certainly in cultures where women routinely go topless, breasts are not a major sexual attractor....

That is like saying that legs are not a major attractor in this culture because women are habitually naked from the upper thighs down. Quite the contrary, females in this culture use their legs for sexual display, which is an instinctive impulse shared with other primates.

Breasts evolved in human females most likely to be attractive to males, because in most primitive societies females have to compete with each other for husbands beginning at puberty. Humans and bonobos are the only animals I can think of that develop breasts at puberty instead of when they are pregnant. Large breasts in young females is indicative of fertility. Males are designed by evolution to be able to discern female health and fertility.

Quote from: "Samsquantch"They seem to forget that phobia means fear....

"phobia" also means to be repulsed by something, such as hydrophobicity in chemistry.

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2021, 01:32:03 PM

Quote from: Brad on February 14, 2021, 10:42:04 PM

Quote from: S'mon on February 14, 2021, 02:25:07 PM
Well there is some cultural variation - and certainly in cultures where women routinely go topless, breasts are not a major sexual attractor - but there are also some consistencies, such as the 7-10 waist-hip ratio being considered the most attractive. Some cultures think 28-40 is best, some 35-50, some fashionistas may like 21-30... but none find a belly bigger than hips attractive.

"Cultural variation" is like saying some hoodrats are okay with tattoos and the intelligentsia don't care for them. That all goes out the window when a naked Halle Berry with a tramp stamp is beckoning you to "hang out". Oh you don't like tats, sure, does it really matter in this case?

EDIT: Just to placate Pundit, in gaming terms someone with an 18 CHA (COM if we're using that stat) is beyond reproach. Even with a hefty negative reaction penalty, they're still going to illicit a very positive reaction.

S'mon - I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me at all.

I was replying to Brad. AFACIR I was slightly disagreeing with his 'no variation' view.

I think you're right that culturally and specifically, people disagree about fine variations of attractiveness at the top end, but attractive vs not attractive is fairly universal.

QuoteWomen aren't chopping off their legs in droves to avoid being sexualized. They are chopping off their perfectly healthy breasts, though.

Really? I mean I somehow doubt there's more women chopping breasts, than enlarging it - and I doubt most of choppers do it to avoid being sexuallised - rather to avoide spine problems or cancer.

Quote from: S'mon on February 16, 2021, 04:58:09 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2021, 01:32:03 PM
S'mon - I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me at all.

I was replying to Brad. AFACIR I was slightly disagreeing with his 'no variation' view.

I think you're right that culturally and specifically, people disagree about fine variations of attractiveness at the top end, but attractive vs not attractive is fairly universal.

Thanks. Yes, so supermodel vs cute girl next door is largely culturally dependent (COM 13 vs 18), but ugly vs attractive is largely biological (COM 7 vs 13).

Quote from: Slipshot762 on February 16, 2021, 05:55:57 AM
When a neckbeard who normally sexes socks to the extent that a pile of crusty socks growing mushrooms resides in the corner of his room like a splooge golem waiting on the final casting to animate, a muppet with bewbs, which is to say essentially a felt sock with bewbs, is probably maddeningly lewd to the point where they type outrage with one hand while adding to the golem with the other.

Dude.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 16, 2021, 07:46:18 PM

QuoteWomen aren't chopping off their legs in droves to avoid being sexualized. They are chopping off their perfectly healthy breasts, though.

Really? I mean I somehow doubt there's more women chopping breasts, than enlarging it - and I doubt most of choppers do it to avoid being sexuallised - rather to avoide spine problems or cancer.

I recommend reading Abigail Shrier and Debra Soh for further information.

QuoteI recommend reading Abigail Shrier and Debra Soh for further information.

Well while I really appreciate the first article after googling is conemnation of "transgender children" nevertheless I have no time to dwell through gender-sociological sites now - so if you could just pinpoint me to some specific numeric data I'd be glad. If you cannot, don't worry, it's not that important - just wanted to have some comparison

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 18, 2021, 10:21:49 AM

QuoteI recommend reading Abigail Shrier and Debra Soh for further information.

Well while I really appreciate the first article after googling is conemnation of "transgender children" nevertheless I have no time to dwell through gender-sociological sites now - so if you could just pinpoint me to some specific numeric data I'd be glad. If you cannot, don't worry, it's not that important - just wanted to have some comparison

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/324768316_Sex_Ratio_in_Children_and_Adolescents_Referred_to_the_Gender_Identity_Development_Service_in_the_UK_2009-2016

Wait but this is IIUC more about general dysphoria - not I will make my boobs smaller to not be attractive supposed phenomena.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 18, 2021, 05:30:08 PM
Wait but this is IIUC more about general dysphoria - not I will make my boobs smaller to not be attractive supposed phenomena.

My point is that the excessive demonization/sexualization of women's bodies by the media compared to men's may be a key risk factor in why so many women and girls are disproportionately developing dysphoria and seeking irreversible surgery in the first place.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 18, 2021, 05:30:08 PM
Wait but this is IIUC more about general dysphoria - not I will make my boobs smaller to not be attractive supposed phenomena.

Considering all the varieties of insane out there. Yes there are people out there wanting their knockers reduced to not be attractive, or as attractive. Rather than for health or just practicality issues.

Friend of mine has an ongoing hatred of 3rd wave feminists as among the myriad insane things theyve done, she was told she should get her boobs reduced "to spite men."

Never underestimate how insane people will act. We actually have women preaching that you are too attractive and should have that "cured".

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 18, 2021, 07:07:00 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 18, 2021, 05:30:08 PM
Wait but this is IIUC more about general dysphoria - not I will make my boobs smaller to not be attractive supposed phenomena.

My point is that the excessive demonization/sexualization of women's bodies by the media compared to men's may be a key risk factor in why so many women and girls are disproportionately developing dysphoria and seeking irreversible surgery in the first place.

It's hardly new, this is just the new flavor of the same issue that led to eating disorders being a big thing among girls.  Only now instead of an insecure teenager harming themselves with an eating disorder, they're harming themselves with medical body modifications.  Of course, now there's an industry profiting off of it, so where eating disorders were rightfully being discouraged as harmful, getting your body hacked up and permanently damaged with hormones is stunning and brave.

And boys aren't immune to it either, they just tend to harm themselves through attempts to match an unrealistically Hollywood-chiseled standard of male attractiveness, going to steroids and other damaging methods of excessive exercise that can lead to serious injury when there's no professional trainer keeping an eye on things.

Quote from: Valatar on February 19, 2021, 02:01:31 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 18, 2021, 07:07:00 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 18, 2021, 05:30:08 PM
Wait but this is IIUC more about general dysphoria - not I will make my boobs smaller to not be attractive supposed phenomena.

My point is that the excessive demonization/sexualization of women's bodies by the media compared to men's may be a key risk factor in why so many women and girls are disproportionately developing dysphoria and seeking irreversible surgery in the first place.

It's hardly new, this is just the new flavor of the same issue that led to eating disorders being a big thing among girls.  Only now instead of an insecure teenager harming themselves with an eating disorder, they're harming themselves with medical body modifications.  Of course, now there's an industry profiting off of it, so where eating disorders were rightfully being discouraged as harmful, getting your body hacked up and permanently damaged with hormones is stunning and brave.

And boys aren't immune to it either, they just tend to harm themselves through attempts to match an unrealistically Hollywood-chiseled standard of male attractiveness, going to steroids and other damaging methods of excessive exercise that can lead to serious injury when there's no professional trainer keeping an eye on things.

I find it down right evil that physicians are skipping the mental illness aspect of treatment for body dysmorphia and going straight to the irreversible step of body mutilation via surgery. Anyone that speaks out against this gets pilloried in the public square and stripped of credentials in case of medical professionals. It's sheer insanity.

This topic is going very far off-track into political discussion that is not directly connected to gaming. Keep it on topic. Anyone posting an off-topic political post will be banned.