Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2021, 03:43:39 PM
But particularly within Cyberpunk, one of the themes is that life is not fair. Genetically engineered, cyber-enhanced individuals are better in every way than unenhanced poor people.

No, that's transhuman games. In cyberpunk games, there's a tradeoff for being enhanced. Often it's a loss of empathy/humanity/sanity or some other trait that makes your character a person rather than just a machine that happens to be based on the chassis of a person. Of course, some players prefer to take that trait as close to zero as possible for various reasons. Still, there is usually a downside to overdoing enhancements in cyberpunk.

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2021, 03:43:39 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 11:29:08 AM

Quote from: Omega on March 26, 2021, 12:22:46 AM
Why use "race" at all?

As noted. None of these listed are actual races. If that were the case then "people wearing plaid" or "People with tattoos" must be a race too. These are, usually, just augmented humans as it were. Or manufactured beings.

It's a matter of semantics. Genetically engineered mutants and robots might not be "races" in the technical sense of the word, but they're still different classes of entity (or whatever term you'd prefer), potentially with different traits and capabilities (including ability modifiers and such) for RPG purposes. And the typical term used to referred to those beings within TTRPGs is "race".

Obviously, that's used in D&D - but I don't see that it's in wide use particularly for sci-fi games. Both D6 and D20 Star Wars use "species" for the different alien species, as does Stars Without Number. Besides the semantics, though, there's a big question about the mechanics. In fantasy, dwarves all have certain features. But in sci-fi, all robots aren't the same. Robots can have vastly different qualities depending on what they were built for.

Sure, but my point was more that we're still ultimately talking about some type of "race", or at least what is meant by that word in D&D, which refers to different classes of beings. Even if a different term is used (and perhaps it should) the concept of "races" is still relevant for purposes of having a RPG discussion, which I believe was the reason why the OP included the term "race" in the topic title. "Race" is simply a shorthand used in RPG discussions to refer to species, android models, or other types of being that might exist in the game world.

If the argument is "The term 'race' shouldn't be used in a Cyberpunk setting" then I'm inclined to agree. But if we're talking about the RPG concept of "races" (as in classes of being), then I would say that "races" can exist in pretty much any world that features different playable beings other than humans, even if there is some degree of variability within each of these classes of being.

Robots, for example, might have a variety of possible attributes in a setting, but we could still use the term "robot" to refer to them as their "race" when talking about what type of "races" are available in the game world, then include the range of options that robots have available as part of their "racial" description. Or alternately, we could break down "robots" into various models and use a separate racial entry for each model, but we're still ultimately talking about including robots as a class of being (or "race") that exists in the game world.

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2021, 03:43:39 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on March 25, 2021, 07:19:07 PM
Lets see how you guys like this:

Android: Mechanical machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX -2CHA -2WIS
Can't take any biological augmentation

Human : The poor, who can't afford to get upgrades or a cult?
+1 to any two attributes
Can take any biological/mechanical augmentation

Mutant : Those born with a mutation either from non-mutant or mutant parents. Mutations can be either advantageous or disadvantageous.
Roll on the table to get the modifiers
Can't take any biological augmentation

NuGene : Those who got their human DNA modified to gain X upgrade. Vat grown
Choose two: +2STR +2DEX +2CON
Choose two: -1INT -1WIS -1CHA
Can't take any biological augmentation

Simulant : Biological machines with free will.
+1 INT +1CON +1STR +1DEX Choose one: -1CHA -1WIS
Can't take  any biological/mechanical augmentation

Augmentations: Besides the price in credits there's also the pricein humanity and the risk of rejection.

Biological - Splicer : Those who got animal genes spliced into themselves

Mechanical - Cyborg : Those who got chrome upgrades

I get that you're trying to make these like D&D races, but that doesn't fit the source material to my mind. Different androids, nugenes, and simulants could have very different qualities depending on how and why they were built. A combat android might have great physical ability, while a pleasure android might be weak but high CHA.

It seems like this is trying to make everyone equal, like balanced races in D&D. But particularly within Cyberpunk, one of the themes is that life is not fair. Genetically engineered, cyber-enhanced individuals are better in every way than unenhanced poor people.

TBH, the idea of "balanced" races doesn't even work that well in D&D or fantasy (elves are clearly vastly superior to humans according most fantasy source material, but not according to the PHB), but it makes sense from a game mechanics point of view, which IMO is the real reason all races are balanced out in D&D.

That being said, maybe some of these "races" that Geeky is proposing should have variable ability modifiers instead, depending on their model or the purpose they were built to fulfil. OR, maybe they could be broken down into various models (pleasure droids, combat droids, maintenance droids, etc.) with separate benefits each.

Quote from: HappyDaze on March 26, 2021, 05:36:15 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 26, 2021, 03:43:39 PM
But particularly within Cyberpunk, one of the themes is that life is not fair. Genetically engineered, cyber-enhanced individuals are better in every way than unenhanced poor people.

No, that's transhuman games. In cyberpunk games, there's a tradeoff for being enhanced. Often it's a loss of empathy/humanity/sanity or some other trait that makes your character a person rather than just a machine that happens to be based on the chassis of a person. Of course, some players prefer to take that trait as close to zero as possible for various reasons. Still, there is usually a downside to overdoing enhancements in cyberpunk.

OK, fair enough - there can be some drawbacks, but even so, an unmodified human is usually not an even match for a heavily-enhanced person. Robocop outmatches ordinary human cops, and replicants outmatch ordinary humans in Blade Runner -- to pick some commonly-known examples.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
If the argument is "The term 'race' shouldn't be used in a Cyberpunk setting" then I'm inclined to agree. But if we're talking about the RPG concept of "races" (as in classes of being), then I would say that "races" can exist in pretty much any world that features different playable beings other than humans, even if there is some degree of variability within each of these classes of being.

That seems overly broad to me. For example, Marvel Superheroes and Champions have plenty of non-human characters, but if I create an alien like Thor, for example, I'm just using the same rules as for creating a human like Hawkeye. Being a non-human race is just color for the abilities.

There are also RPGs that have distinct non-human packages, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Dresden Files, but there being non-human is just folded into the general Quality/Drawback system. Being a vampire is treated the same as being a witch or being a psychic - just another sort of Quality/Drawback.

Both of these are quite distinct from how races work in D&D. Would you say that Marvel Superheroes has a "race system"?

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
TBH, the idea of "balanced" races doesn't even work that well in D&D or fantasy (elves are clearly vastly superior to humans according most fantasy source material, but not according to the PHB), but it makes sense from a game mechanics point of view, which IMO is the real reason all races are balanced out in D&D.

That being said, maybe some of these "races" that Geeky is proposing should have variable ability modifiers instead, depending on their model or the purpose they were built to fulfil. OR, maybe they could be broken down into various models (pleasure droids, combat droids, maintenance droids, etc.) with separate benefits each.

Maybe androids could be like mutants - roll for the model of android that you are, just like rolling for your mutation. Likewise for NuGenes and synthetics - roll for the type of mod you get.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2021, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
If the argument is "The term 'race' shouldn't be used in a Cyberpunk setting" then I'm inclined to agree. But if we're talking about the RPG concept of "races" (as in classes of being), then I would say that "races" can exist in pretty much any world that features different playable beings other than humans, even if there is some degree of variability within each of these classes of being.

That seems overly broad to me. For example, Marvel Superheroes and Champions have plenty of non-human characters, but if I create an alien like Thor, for example, I'm just using the same rules as for creating a human like Hawkeye. Being a non-human race is just color for the abilities.

There are also RPGs that have distinct non-human packages, like Buffy the Vampire Slayer or Dresden Files, but there being non-human is just folded into the general Quality/Drawback system. Being a vampire is treated the same as being a witch or being a psychic - just another sort of Quality/Drawback.

Both of these are quite distinct from how races work in D&D. Would you say that Marvel Superheroes has a "race system"?

If you mean FASERIP, in that game the term they used for races was "Origin". They had Altered Humans, Mutants, Technology Heroes, Robots and Aliens. Each origin had a different attribute range, as well as different rules for determining their abilities. Mutants got +1 CS to their Endurance and one extra power (IIRC), for example, but penalties to gaining Reputation. Tech Heroes got a bonus to Reason and starting Resources, and could get a suit that modified their physical stats and had their powers built into it, etc.

They probably didn't put too much work into making elaborate alien races and such because the game used powers and core abilities with descriptive ranks as building blocks to create almost any type of character. So you were sort of left to your own devices building the type of character you wanted. But each origin had its own framework, and they even had templates for some of the common alien races (like Asgardians) in the GM's manual IIRC. There were even guidelines for making characters using those templates as well.

I never got to play Champions, but that game also used a "building block" approach with its extensive use of effect-based powers, and I remember reading about the idea of using some type of race template or package to handle races or common origins in the Hero system. So the idea of "races" existed as well, the game just relied on a package system using its effect-based powers to build up all racial abilities and such, and left it up to the GM to build all that stuff from what I've read of the system.

I suppose you could also build races or different types of "origins" and such using a Quality/Drawback approach, but that still works off the idea that you have things like Witches and Vampires as distinct entities from baseline humans.

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2021, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
TBH, the idea of "balanced" races doesn't even work that well in D&D or fantasy (elves are clearly vastly superior to humans according most fantasy source material, but not according to the PHB), but it makes sense from a game mechanics point of view, which IMO is the real reason all races are balanced out in D&D.

That being said, maybe some of these "races" that Geeky is proposing should have variable ability modifiers instead, depending on their model or the purpose they were built to fulfil. OR, maybe they could be broken down into various models (pleasure droids, combat droids, maintenance droids, etc.) with separate benefits each.

Maybe androids could be like mutants - roll for the model of android that you are, just like rolling for your mutation. Likewise for NuGenes and synthetics - roll for the type of mod you get.

That approach could also work. Random tables for base origin and specific models or abilities.

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 27, 2021, 04:33:08 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 27, 2021, 03:07:55 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on March 26, 2021, 06:37:40 PM
If the argument is "The term 'race' shouldn't be used in a Cyberpunk setting" then I'm inclined to agree. But if we're talking about the RPG concept of "races" (as in classes of being), then I would say that "races" can exist in pretty much any world that features different playable beings other than humans, even if there is some degree of variability within each of these classes of being.

That seems overly broad to me. For example, Marvel Superheroes and Champions have plenty of non-human characters, but if I create an alien like Thor, for example, I'm just using the same rules as for creating a human like Hawkeye. Being a non-human race is just color for the abilities.

If you mean FASERIP, in that game the term they used for races was "Origin". They had Altered Humans, Mutants, Technology Heroes, Robots and Aliens. Each origin had a different attribute range, as well as different rules for determining their abilities. Mutants got +1 CS to their Endurance and one extra power (IIRC), for example, but penalties to gaining Reputation. Tech Heroes got a bonus to Reason and starting Resources, and could get a suit that modified their physical stats and had their powers built into it, etc.

They probably didn't put too much work into making elaborate alien races and such because the game used powers and core abilities with descriptive ranks as building blocks to create almost any type of character. So you were sort of left to your own devices building the type of character you wanted. But each origin had its own framework, and they even had templates for some of the common alien races (like Asgardians) in the GM's manual IIRC. There were even guidelines for making characters using those templates as well.

I never got to play Champions, but that game also used a "building block" approach with its extensive use of effect-based powers, and I remember reading about the idea of using some type of race template or package to handle races or common origins in the Hero system. So the idea of "races" existed as well, the game just relied on a package system using its effect-based powers to build up all racial abilities and such, and left it up to the GM to build all that stuff from what I've read of the system.

Ah, you're right - I was misremembering FASERIP. It's been a while since I played. Checking my copy, you're right - except mutants don't have an extra power, and the Asgardian stats are just for typical Asgardian NPCs - not a template for PCs. For tech heroes, they have the same stats as others - but those stats come from the super-suit. (Other heroes could have this if they select an "alter ego".) In my limited experience, the adjustments for origin seemed minor compared to the variation in PCs. That is, it was easy to forget whether a given PC is an mutant or an altered human or alien after going through creation.

I played Champions a lot more, though, and its effect-based system means that it is entirely irrelevant whether a character is a mutant or alien or altered human. That is purely descriptive color for the character, just part of the background story. You select the character's abilities and powers and pay the point cost. I could create a mutant character with a bunch of abilities, and afterwards I could change my mind and turn them into an alien and not touch anything in the character sheet - just the description.

That makes it very different from the game concept of races in D&D, even though it's still true that aliens are different than humans and such.