Quote from: VBWyrdeI'm thinking the problem with your request is that no such good solid data exists, or if it does exist, its not available to the public.   Therefore we have no good solid data to go on.   All we have are anecdotes and common sense, and a "feel for how things are going" and guesswork.   If good solid data is a requirement for this discussion then we're going to have to end the discussion.   But most people don't really want to end the discussion.  So we make stabs at what we *think* is going on.   Yes, most of these stabs are probably wrong.   But that's life.   I say we stab away for the fun of it.

Conversely, if anyone knows of sources for afore mentioned good solid data, please fork over links.   I'd be curious indeed to take a look.

I scoured the Internet for the last couple of days.  What is publically available (e.g. The Daedalus Project) is at least a year old, often more, and doesn't take into account the changes that World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade put to the MMORPG scene.  There is an article that talks about the utter domination of WOW vs. other subscription-based MMORPGs, along with how competitors are attempting to compete with WOW, but that has no survey data.

Furthermore, there is no data at all that compares MMORPGs to TRPGs, not that is pubically available.  If I am to scour further, I must make use of what access I have to more specialized database resources (and call up a librarian I know) to point me directions I likely missed.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerI scoured the Internet for the last couple of days.  What is publically available (e.g. The Daedalus Project) is at least a year old, often more, and doesn't take into account the changes that World of Warcraft: The Burning Crusade put to the MMORPG scene.  There is an article that talks about the utter domination of WOW vs. other subscription-based MMORPGs, along with how competitors are attempting to compete with WOW, but that has no survey data.

Links?

I have my own hypothesis on why WoW is devouring the competition, I'd be interested in what others have to say.

Quote from: Old GeezerRight.

Because they're getting something out of the TTRPG they don't get online.

(Or was that your point, and I'm just being thick?)

You're just being thick.

Partly my fault though. "quote + reply" is my standard method of disagreeing with something, so when I use it to agree I'm breaking my mold.

Quote from: Old GeezerLinks?

I have my own hypothesis on why WoW is devouring the competition, I'd be interested in what others have to say.

The Daedalus Project

Subscription-based MMORPG Article @ Warcry

Hope this helps.

Quote from: James McMurrayYou're just being thick.

"Dur!", as Terry Pratchett would say.

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerSubscription-based MMORPG Article @ Warcry

okay, I'm confused.  That article seems to be saying that subscription based games are dying even as it says that WoW is so much huger than anybody else.

Isn't WoW a subscription based game?  I know *I* am certainly paying for it.

They also seem to be totally off base on the "sandbox" versus "directed" game.  After playing Guild Wars, WoW seems very much like a "sandbox" to me.  There probably is a "great game arc" there, but I'll be fucked witless if I can find it out.  Seems to be pretty much just linked chain quests to lead you from area to area.  Granted, I'm only up to 26th level, but I don't see much "direction".  Yes, there's "history" around, but you can play the game very well while ignoring it.

Guild Wars Nightfall -- now THERE is a directed game.  In WoW, on the other hand, my character could, if I desired, spend the next five years doing nothing but fishing, gathering herbs, making potions, cooking, and selling stuff  in the auction house.

Sounds like a sandbox to me.

Now, MY theory (and it is mine) on why WoW is eating everybody's lunch:

1)  The look.  After Guild Wars I was nonplussed by the art, until somebody said "I love the art, it's just like being in a Walt Disney movie".

A ha.  It's no accident that certain elements of the art style of the "serious" Disney animated films are still used.  They use those elements because people respond positively to it.

I'm no artist, I can't say what these elements are, but "I know a Disney cartoon when I see it."

2)  Content.  WoW has probably just gotten lucky, but they've hit a good balance between freedom and direction.  Given infinite choices the average person merely becomes confused, but WoW isn't on rails either.

3)  Play.  I've seen several people say that WoW is the easiest game to play.  Having played Guild Wars Nightfall, it's SURE easier than NF.

4)  Free Demo.  I downloaded the WoW free demo and the EQ2 free demo at the same time.

In six hours I'd finished the EQ demo.  I could cover the entire area in 15 minutes, and there were no more quests.  If I wanted to continue, it was time to pony up money.

Same with Star Wars Galaxies.  Took a few days to finish, but you're stuck in this shitty little space station until you cough up.

But with WoW, you have ten days, ready, set, go.  I could do whatever I liked for ten days.  More than once, I just spent a full day -- six hours or more -- running down roads to see what I found.  WoW let me have access to as much of the world as I could get to in ten days.

So, that's MY opinion about why WoW is dominating the scene.

And opinions are like assholes.  Everybody's got one, and they're all full of shit except for your own.:pundit:

Quote from: Bradford C. WalkerThe Daedalus Project

I'm afraid I broke their "motivations assessment".

"Your Achievement percentile rank is 1%. Your Socializing percentile rank is 5%. And your Immersion percentile rank is 24%."

Of course, I'm a Casual WoW player.  I play instead of watching TV, and if it gets more difficult that watching TV, I don't do it.

Which makes me wonder -- how many people play WoW as "interactive TV"?  But I suspect that's a different thread.

Quote from: David RSame here. Also, from conversations with them, they realize it's two separate hobbies. They don't play MMORPGs as a substitute for TTRPGs.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Now someone please clue WotC in to this.

Quote from: Old Geezerokay, I'm confused.  That article seems to be saying that subscription based games are dying even as it says that WoW is so much huger than anybody else.

Maybe it's like a beach covered in dolphins, and WoW is the whale. Everyone's gonna die, but the whale is going look more impressive doing it.

Quote from: John MorrowNow someone please clue WotC in to this.

I seriously don't understand how the folk at WotC can't see this.  I mean... they spend ALL DAY, EVERY DAY working on RPGs.  How can they not understand them?

Maybe it's all orders from above, and a corporate culture that encourages people not to question their superiors.

...

OMG!  The example of that kind of thing I was just about to post... it's also a Hasbro product.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oozinator#Controversy

^--- If that's not an example of lots of people not wanting to speak up about a bad product idea, I don't know what is!

Quote from: StuartI seriously don't understand how the folk at WotC can't see this.  I mean... they spend ALL DAY, EVERY DAY working on RPGs.  How can they not understand them?

Okay, serious time.

I have an MBA.

Remember, the people who design these RPGs are not the people making decisions.

One of the very scariest things I ever learned in business school is the truth of the "executive summary".

Basically, high level decision makers absolutely will not read anything longer than one page.

By the time you're done with the introduction, recommendation, and conclusion -- you're down to approximately three bullet points.

I'm not joking.  Don't take my word for it -- go do some research on "the importance of the executive summary".

By the time you have filtered data through enough sets of bullet points, you reach the magical land of "D&D = WoW.  They both have elves, after all."

I wish there was any trace of kidding in this.  I'm absolutely, totally as serious as chest pains with tingling in your left arm.

Quote from: John MorrowDing! Ding! Ding!

Now someone please clue WotC in to this.

My guess, frankly, is that it's too late.   They've jumped the shark.  Corporate culture being what it is, there is little hope that truly creative enterprises can survive in the toxic anti-creativity atmosphere that hampers the corporate world.   They'z just agin it.   I should know, I spent the last ten years working in one - and every year they get stupider and stupider.  Really.   It's almost as if they are following Dilbert and religiously applying every principal they read there.  Or so it would seem.

The best brightest hope for fun is with small time developers who are not in it for the money.   That's my hunch.

Edit:  Emphasis on "not in it for the money".   There are those who say they are not in it for the money, but they are.   Oddly, there are those who say the are in it for the money, but aren't.  Those however are a rare breed.

Quote from: John MorrowAs they make D&D more like WoW, those differences become less significant, which is my point.

Really? I thought they became more significant?

If you try to be totally friggin' alien just to be able to say "yeah, I'm P&P over here and we ain't no MMORPG" then you've missed the boat. Toss these potential new customers a bone, let them relate. Frankly after reading the ENWorld 4e Info page I just don't get "well this is an MMORPG now". Yes there is commonality between the two, you know computer RPGs didn't exactly spring up from nowhere. Of course some advances are going to either look like WoW or be inspired by WoW. I sure as hell would hope that the designers aren't being so narrow-minded as to entirely exclude such potential sources.

So the short answer to "why can't they understand that P&P is different than MMORPGs" is that I don't see evidence that they do not understand this. What I do see evidence of is people freaking over a lot of comminality that is superficial (like similar terminology), beneficial, and/or incidental.

Quote from: Old GeezerBasically, high level decision makers absolutely will not read anything longer than one page.

One good way to cut through that it to use that brief space to tell them something that so frightens them or confuses them that they have to ask for more information.

Time to trod out the true story, publicly told by Monte Cook to Ryan Dancey, that shortly after publication of 3E the Hasbro suits at WOTC suggested to ditch the "Dragons" in the name "Dungeons & Dragons."

Reason: Magic the Gathering has dragons in it too.

The customer might get confused.