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Author Topic: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds  (Read 5235 times)

Chris24601

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2021, 05:48:07 PM »
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn’t feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.

Shrieking Banshee

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #31 on: October 14, 2021, 05:54:42 PM »
On a completly unrelated note....Anybody here looking for an industrial investigative fantasy SWADE game EST evenings?

oggsmash

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #32 on: October 14, 2021, 07:49:05 PM »
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn’t feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.

  I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg.  However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been.  SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters.   I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.     

   From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running.  The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business.  The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP.  So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla.  In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies.   I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well. 

   I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more.   So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts.   So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters.   I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW.   Probably for the best though.

Chris24601

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2021, 01:26:49 PM »
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn’t feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.

  I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg.  However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been.  SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters.   I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.     

   From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running.  The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business.  The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP.  So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla.  In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies.   I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well. 

   I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more.   So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts.   So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters.   I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW.   Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.

A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.

And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so)  and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).

Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.

tenbones

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #34 on: October 15, 2021, 05:21:38 PM »
I'm a bit rusty on my Palladium Rifts systems, but I'm down to compare/contrast...

As for your edition - it sounds like you're using the older Deluxe Edition. Current SWADE edition has Ley Line Walkers at 20PP and they start with 5 Powers. On top of their other abilities (Like Rapid Recharge - where they get 10PP back per hour - and at Veteran Rank this can be increased to 20PP/hr.)


20PP plus 5 Powers is *beefy*. Because the values of the numbers are smaller, the abstraction of the Armor and Damage values make combat less bullet-spongey than Palladium Rifts could be - or closer to what it should be if your PC is packing serious heat.

Bolt -Does 2d6 damage. 3d6 on a Raise for 1PP. For 2PP the caster can increase the damage to 3d6/4d6. If the Ley Line Walker wants to charge it up for +4PP the Bolt now does 4d6 Mega-Damage/5d6 Mega-Damage on a raise. And there are other modifiers they can apply to their cast like Onslaught - which gives your Bolts a RoF of 2 doubling your damage output for *only* 2PP extra.

Standard Modern Deadboy armor (which is pretty damn good armor) is +6 and +1 Toughness. Most modern armor in the game is floating around +4-5 with no other benefits.

Armor of Ithan - you could cut this different ways. If you want to represent it as the "Protection Power" - then standard cast is 1PP and you'll get 2 points of Armor. With a Raise you get 4.  If you want to spend an extra 1PP, you can increase the Armor value to 4-points /6-points with a Raise.  If you want to spend +1PP you can make the values Toughness instead of Armor - which negates Armor Piercing quality.

Now if you're a Ley Line Walker and you wanna juice it up. You can spend +3PP (For a total of 4PP) and Protection gives you 6-points of Mega-Damage Armor/+8 with a Raise which stacks with all other forms of armor, natural or worn. And can be combined with the Toughness Modifier but not more armor.

So right out of the gate, the Protection power is really powerful. A regular Ley Line walker is coming out of the gate with the ability to be immune to small-arms and all regular damage (which is the vast norm for Rifts contrary to popular belief, outside of PC's of course).

Since Savage Worlds doesn't do depletive HP/MDC - I think it's pretty close in comparison in play.

The other reality is that since Powers in Savage Worlds have other configurations - like Blast, or Burst, that Mega Damage effects tend to be much higher, which still has corollary effects. A solid wall for instance has a Hardness rating of 10. Most Mega-Damage effects are going to disintegrate it. And the effects of Edges will further make Ley Line Walkers (and other Arcane caster really dangerous - like the Blaster Edge, which increases all damage dice from d6 to d8 and gives all AP effects +1).

I'll have to look at the Palladium edition Ley Line Walker, but their Savage Worlds versions are certainly no fucking joke right out of the box. Are there other concepts that more powerful from the starting gate? I think so - I think the Combat Borg in particular, and the Dragon are pound for pound nastier. But this depends entirely on the Ley Line Walkers power-choices. Once the game starts, the Walker will out-utility them without dropping off the powercurve. They're really flexible *and* powerful.


« Last Edit: October 15, 2021, 05:24:19 PM by tenbones »

Ghostmaker

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #35 on: October 16, 2021, 11:13:58 AM »
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn’t feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.

  I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg.  However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been.  SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters.   I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.     

   From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running.  The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business.  The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP.  So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla.  In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies.   I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well. 

   I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more.   So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts.   So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters.   I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW.   Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.

A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.

And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so)  and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).

Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.
Savage Worlds did undergo a kind of 3E to 3.5E revision, with Adventurer's Edition (typically abbreviated as SWADE). It changed a few things around.

HappyDaze

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Re: D&D Players: Why you might like Savage Worlds
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2021, 11:44:06 AM »
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn’t feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.

  I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg.  However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been.  SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters.   I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.     

   From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running.  The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business.  The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP.  So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla.  In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies.   I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well. 

   I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more.   So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts.   So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters.   I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW.   Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.

A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.

And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so)  and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).

Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.
If you can, get Power Surge along with Level Headed (and maybe Improved Level Headed). Gaining 10 power points anytime you get a Joker can make a huge difference in spell output.