Well I talked about Savage Worlds (Or SW for short) merits before, but I have not talked about them in a D&D context.
So below is presented why you might like SW if your coming off of D&D. Im not gonna focus HOW it does these things (that might be better served for Q&A), but I wanted to focus on stuff that bugged me as a GM and D&D player, and wanted a fix for. This is more D&D 3e-5e players. If you want your 0D&D style gameplay, then thats your thing.
Dodging is Dodging - Armor is Armor
In SW armor subtracts from damage, and how well you evade hits is a separate thing. If your the kind of person thats annoyed by armor making you harder to hit, and then requiring a whole new thing of 'Damage Reduction/ Resistance' to take the place of a mechanical equivalent, this gets rid of that problem.
Conditions are not abnoxious
In D&D (except 4e I guess), conditions are abnoxious. They can take you out of the fight in one bad roll. And so your healer has to keep up with an ever increasing list of healing spells to get you back into the fight. But at the same time an increasing amount of monsters with level are just made immune to conditions YOU can throw out.
This game has no condition thats just instant death effectively (unless it does the equivalent amount of effort to a regular kill). You can be mind controlled, frozen, spooked, stunned, grappled, excetera, but there generally are no save or sucks.
Called Shots - We got em
If you like staking the vampire in the heart, or shooting somebody in the face because they don't wear a helmet, this has it. Stab that dragon in the eye!
The Undumping of Stats
Charisma has just been culled completly and made into a edge (a feat equivalent). In general, you can't just avoid dumping stats without really feeling the sting. Even something like STR, which is usually the next dump stat after charisma (Well 5e has its own dump list) is required for better armor and weapons.
But in general, because of how skills work in this game, you don't want to just spike 1 ability at the expense of everything else.
Smaller Quantity of more useful abilities
I like having my character feel distinct both thematically, and mechanically. SW lets you make characters that feel distinct without drowing you in tons of micro-options each level (+2 to will saves on a tuesday if your alergic to nuts). Instead you get fewer options each level, but they are generally more significant. A +2 in SW is more important than in D&D.
Progression without Cosmic crabs & +3 Clubs
Characters do most certainly become more powerful with levels. But it doesn't create a logic where they progress so much only the next tier of challenges are evan a question. You don't reach what I call the 'Cosmic Crab' effect, where you fight crab at level 2, and then elemental crabs at level 8, and then diabolic crabs at level 15.
Unified Math Logic
This is especially true for those coming off of D&D 3e, but SW has unified resolution tracks. Not one thing for saves, one thing for attack rolls, one thing for hit points, and another thing for skills. Everything follows the same mechanical resolution formula.
Even for 5e, Mages have a different logic track for damage vs martial classes. Mages get more powerful spells, and warriors get more attacks. In SW magic and attacks follow the same action and damage rules.
A mix of point-buy and Freebuild / Level & Class
SW has a bit of the best of both worlds when it comes to levels vs point buy.
It is point buy, so you can spec your character in whatever you want. But it also separates abilities by level in place of cost sink. So as you gain 'levels' you gain more points, and you can use those points on whatever you want. But instead of what many point based games do and gate powerful abilities behind a massive point sink, they instead cost about the same always, and instead only 'open up' at higher levels effectively.
Unreliably reliable
The core resolution system is reliable....But unreliably. In D&D at a certain point unless you roll a 1 or a 20, you always succeed. And somebody rolling a 20 against you might not really matter even with a crit if you have like 100 HP. But here you will in general slaughter scores of peasants, but at the same time there is always a chance of one taking you down. This changes how you aproach things.
Magic is Customizable, not a daily resource & doesn't dominate martials
Magic is focused on a core set of powers you customize yourself. There is no fireball, lightningball, iceball, ballball. Just a un-fluffed 'blast' that you then fluff yourself. The fluff, or 'trappings' are actually important. If your fireball hits a straw-man they will combust and it will deal more damage. And you can make whatever trappings you want. So making a 'fire mage' is really easy.
Magic is also an hourly resource instead of a daily one. Fuck spell slots. You get less of it, but it recharges quicker.
In addition, mages don't just get pages and pages of stuff they can do while a martial is just getting 1 extra attack. Mage abilities are balanced by you getting 1-2 new options (but customizable ones) at a time (but the options are powered by the resource pool), compared to 1 always online martial thing.
As an example, I was concerned about how it handled shapeshifting. SW just lets you turn into powerful creatures and get all their physical abilities. I was certain that with this, shapeshifting would dominate martials. To my suprise, a martials combat edges are really what made them stand out. So while a shapeshifted bear can kick some peasants, against a dedicated combatant they will fail quickly.
Conditions are not obnoxious unless we're talking about 'Shaken', which (in the older versions of the rules; didn't use Deluxe yet) could put your character on Pause for a while, if you failed your Spirit checks a few times in a row (and are OoB).
Our group played SW for a few years (Shiantar, Rippers, Pulp, Cyberpunk, Deadlands, Spanish Main, Slipstream) and the first Edge Everybody! Always! took was Combat Reflexes.
I feel like there's been a noticeable increase in shilling for Savage Worlds on this board recently, and honestly I'm here for it.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on October 10, 2021, 01:45:43 PM
Conditions are not obnoxious unless we're talking about 'Shaken', which (in the older versions of the rules; didn't use Deluxe yet) could put your character on Pause for a while, if you failed your Spirit checks a few times in a row (and are OoB).
Our group played SW for a few years (Shiantar, Rippers, Pulp, Cyberpunk, Deadlands, Spanish Main, Slipstream) and the first Edge Everybody! Always! took was Combat Reflexes.
They nerfed Shaken halfway through the Deluxe edition so it doesn't take away your turn nearly as often. So that's standard now in the current edition.
Quote from: Godfather Punk on October 10, 2021, 01:45:43 PM
Conditions are not obnoxious unless we're talking about 'Shaken', which (in the older versions of the rules; didn't use Deluxe yet) could put your character on Pause for a while, if you failed your Spirit checks a few times in a row (and are OoB).
Im talking about Adventure Edition, and I meant it more in the sense that there are no effects that just make you Petrified for 8 hours until your healer could prepare a stone to flesh spell.
Scalability - Savage Worlds goes from normal people doing normal stuff against normal people, to PC's fighting Godzilla city-level threats (or even greater) using the exact same system without any slow-down.
Mult-Genre - Yes D&D is fantasy. But within the context of fantasy, there are different stripes and flavors. You can run Savage Worlds sword-and-sorcery style, High Fantasy, Exalted level crazy over the top. The system is modular and made to tweak easily between the subtle and vast differences with *zero* impact to the core task-resolution mechanics. And - if you want to cross genres they got you easily covered if you wanna pull some Gamma World or Star Frontiers into your D&D-style game and go full Barrier Peaks mode.
Sub-Systems Galore - If you're the king of GM that doesn't want to get mired down in lots of 'fiddly' which prevents you from doing scenes like chases, mass-combat, capital-ship/ship-scale combat, or even social "combat" like canvasing a neighborhood/city for info gathering, for fear of bogging the game down, Savage Worlds has you covered. They have little sub-systems you can use to emulate nearly any scenario in a fun manner to execute these kinds of scenes complete with random wrench-throwing into the mix that allows the PC's to do really heroic (or knuckletightening) antics. They're excellent for drawing in those players that need a little goosing to get their RP wheels turning, and they're open enough to let veteran players really fly off the leash and go for it. And they're all designed to be tweaked up/down/sideways to allow you to customize them specifically to your table's needs. Mass Combat in particular has been a blast for my games. It lets PC's shine while actually allowing for nearly any and every dramatic possibility (including random elements) to give you the feel of a true ebb/flow of combat. This is supported with in-game Skills and Edges that can make such encounters really give the PC's an advantage, while reinforcing their wheelhouse (yes, a Fighter that leads an actual army against their enemies with skills that back it up!).
All of these systems can seamlessly flow between the sub-system and normal play without dropping a beat. So you could have the battles raging on different fronts, while one or more PC's have single combat against real opponents (which has impact on the enemy forces if their leaders drop).
Degrees of Success - Success matters! More success matters more! Yes, all you need to succeed is to land a 4. But for every increment of 4 over your TN you land it's a Raise. Raises = more win and more damage on an attack. More = Better.
Years ago I ran few rules-light games. We had some fun with SW, but felt that BRP was even easier. Still I'd be willing to give it another try.
I support Shrieking Banshees right to shill for Savage Worlds.
On the other hand the lack of ballball spell means I am out.
Quote from: Shasarak on October 11, 2021, 10:23:25 PM
On the other hand the lack of ballball spell means I am out.
People only like it because its overpowered. Cutting it was good for the game. Same reaosn they havily nerfed the humpty-dump in 5e.
I know it was a typo, and I make plenty of those myself but I loved seeing abnoxious.
Being abnoxious is a gym thing where someone keeps going out of the way to show off their abs to someone else while working out to the point that it is obvious what they are doing, either to impress someone usually of the opposite sex, or to piss off a rival who has less impressive abs.
It's a real thing. Love seeing it pop up here.
I'm thinking maybe someone should post this to the various dnd Reddits. Spread the word. :)
I'd add that SW doesn't try to push any real world agendas or try to make its players think a certain way (or seem attractive to those who already think a certain way) but that might start a different conversation and the point about SW being flat-out better than 5e might get lost.
Quote from: tenbones on October 11, 2021, 11:42:08 AM
Sub-Systems Galore - If you're the king of GM that doesn't want to get mired down in lots of 'fiddly' which prevents you from doing scenes like chases, mass-combat, capital-ship/ship-scale combat, or even social "combat" like canvasing a neighborhood/city for info gathering, for fear of bogging the game down, Savage Worlds has you covered. They have little sub-systems you can use to emulate nearly any scenario in a fun manner to execute these kinds of scenes complete with random wrench-throwing into the mix that allows the PC's to do really heroic (or knuckletightening) antics. They're excellent for drawing in those players that need a little goosing to get their RP wheels turning, and they're open enough to let veteran players really fly off the leash and go for it. And they're all designed to be tweaked up/down/sideways to allow you to customize them specifically to your table's needs. Mass Combat in particular has been a blast for my games. It lets PC's shine while actually allowing for nearly any and every dramatic possibility (including random elements) to give you the feel of a true ebb/flow of combat. This is supported with in-game Skills and Edges that can make such encounters really give the PC's an advantage, while reinforcing their wheelhouse (yes, a Fighter that leads an actual army against their enemies with skills that back it up!).
All of these systems can seamlessly flow between the sub-system and normal play without dropping a beat. So you could have the battles raging on different fronts, while one or more PC's have single combat against real opponents (which has impact on the enemy forces if their leaders drop).
These sub-systems also can handle the other 'pillars' of play that the current crop of DnD players clamor for. Exploration: Check. Puzzles and Traps: Check. Social: Check.
I watched a video a few years ago about the SW creator and his point of view I found to be very similar to mine. I remember specifically one of the points he made, was that when he played Dungeons and dragons (I can not remember if he was a 1st or 2nd edition player) that once his character got a certain AC, he was essentially invulnerable to attacks from lower end creatures, like a horde of zombies for example. I like that SW has rules where even if you are legendary status, you have some level of concern when you wade into a horde of enemies, BUT you also have edges and game mechanics than can allow that legendary character to look legendary in a horde.
I think there are some points where it can bend a bit in play, but for a game that is default pulp, and can be tweaked to be more on the 4 color comics scale, or back over to grim and gritty fairly easily, Savage Worlds is very, very hard to beat with regard to a system. I think the other thing they do very, very well, much better than the producers of other Universal rules systems, is tweaking their rules and making specific settings within the frameworks of their rules. They can emulate a more rigid class structure, or a very open ended character progression. Other systems can do this, but IMO do no make specific settings and situations where the work is done, essentially producing a full game in one package. Savage Rifts and now Savage Pathfinder are the most recent examples of this, and I think there may be a chance for Pinnacle to really rise in the market share over the next few years. They just need to fund a few good looking people with nice voices to play their game on a huge youtube or twitch channel (because I honestly think that has had more to do with D&D rising than anything else).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 13, 2021, 09:27:57 AM
I watched a video a few years ago about the SW creator and his point of view I found to be very similar to mine. I remember specifically one of the points he made, was that when he played Dungeons and dragons (I can not remember if he was a 1st or 2nd edition player) that once his character got a certain AC, he was essentially invulnerable to attacks from lower end creatures, like a horde of zombies for example. I like that SW has rules where even if you are legendary status, you have some level of concern when you wade into a horde of enemies, BUT you also have edges and game mechanics than can allow that legendary character to look legendary in a horde.
I think there are some points where it can bend a bit in play, but for a game that is default pulp, and can be tweaked to be more on the 4 color comics scale, or back over to grim and gritty fairly easily, Savage Worlds is very, very hard to beat with regard to a system. I think the other thing they do very, very well, much better than the producers of other Universal rules systems, is tweaking their rules and making specific settings within the frameworks of their rules. They can emulate a more rigid class structure, or a very open ended character progression. Other systems can do this, but IMO do no make specific settings and situations where the work is done, essentially producing a full game in one package. Savage Rifts and now Savage Pathfinder are the most recent examples of this, and I think there may be a chance for Pinnacle to really rise in the market share over the next few years. They just need to fund a few good looking people with nice voices to play their game on a huge youtube or twitch channel (because I honestly think that has had more to do with D&D rising than anything else).
In late 2019, Critical role did a 3 or 4 part "Undeadwood" game featuring Savage Worlds version of Deadland. Each episode got over a million views. I wonder if there was a bump in sales after?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIGOY6WDoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIGOY6WDoA)
Quote from: Godsmonkey on October 13, 2021, 10:04:04 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 13, 2021, 09:27:57 AM
I watched a video a few years ago about the SW creator and his point of view I found to be very similar to mine. I remember specifically one of the points he made, was that when he played Dungeons and dragons (I can not remember if he was a 1st or 2nd edition player) that once his character got a certain AC, he was essentially invulnerable to attacks from lower end creatures, like a horde of zombies for example. I like that SW has rules where even if you are legendary status, you have some level of concern when you wade into a horde of enemies, BUT you also have edges and game mechanics than can allow that legendary character to look legendary in a horde.
I think there are some points where it can bend a bit in play, but for a game that is default pulp, and can be tweaked to be more on the 4 color comics scale, or back over to grim and gritty fairly easily, Savage Worlds is very, very hard to beat with regard to a system. I think the other thing they do very, very well, much better than the producers of other Universal rules systems, is tweaking their rules and making specific settings within the frameworks of their rules. They can emulate a more rigid class structure, or a very open ended character progression. Other systems can do this, but IMO do no make specific settings and situations where the work is done, essentially producing a full game in one package. Savage Rifts and now Savage Pathfinder are the most recent examples of this, and I think there may be a chance for Pinnacle to really rise in the market share over the next few years. They just need to fund a few good looking people with nice voices to play their game on a huge youtube or twitch channel (because I honestly think that has had more to do with D&D rising than anything else).
In late 2019, Critical role did a 3 or 4 part "Undeadwood" game featuring Savage Worlds version of Deadland. Each episode got over a million views. I wonder if there was a bump in sales after?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIGOY6WDoA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEIGOY6WDoA)
I would think it takes a bit longer to get that sales needle moving, as I think the new purveyors of ads feel a customer needs to see one somewhere between 16-25 times to take action (thanks to decades of being bombarded from all sides in all ways by sales ads from all senses) but I really have no idea.
I think pinnacle is doing the right thing with SW by trying to get these licenses. But its a tricky act because the more public the license is, the more money it has to make and if it asks for too much it will backfire like Genysis and star wars.
Thats why I think they made Savage Pathfinder before a fantasy companion.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 13, 2021, 02:49:46 PM
I think pinnacle is doing the right thing with SW by trying to get these licenses. But its a tricky act because the more public the license is, the more money it has to make and if it asks for too much it will backfire like Genysis and star wars.
Thats why I think they made Savage Pathfinder before a fantasy companion.
I have a feeling the pathfinder license was a lot like the Rifts license, on sale. I noticed they kickstart the projects too, so they really are doing a smart job pre selling anyway. Since they can digitally distribute in the mean time waiting for print copies to arrive to customers, I think they are doing a rather good job of using what the 21st century offers to creep up on the leviathan(s) of the Rpg industry.
I would also add, they had the system long developed and tweaked several times before they got too concerned with setting and license that was not in house. As a system I think geneys kind of sucks, and though it might be a good fit for star wars, it seems awkward as hell with fantasy and some other settings (they essentially seemed to have done exactly the opposite of what SW did regarding setting license and system) and last I checked was pretty much a huge sales dud.
A system, no matter how good, needs a very strong setting baked in to have massive sales success. Not to be good, or great for my purposes, but I probably fall into the 1-5 percent of game consumers with regards to the threshold it takes for me to buy a game/system...I think the other masses need an evocative setting to suck them in. Rifts is that, with both older players for nostalgia as well as newer players with *wow*. Pretty much the same for Pathfinder, as IMO it hits an even bigger audience, the D&D audience with something familiar to get them to give it a try. I think for rifts, it kills their system to be honest. But maybe KS made a deal to fund his retirement on royalties and will finally stop being a control freak and collect checks while out fishing. Pathfinder looks to me to be in a big shift (as in losing market share and money) and maybe they did the same, where the founders there were looking for a long term royalty income so they made deals to keep the prices reasonable and the money flowing. They also seem to be benefitting from using their license for video games, so who knows.
This is the big gripe I always had with GURPS....create, or license a setting that sucks people in. I swear, they choose some of the oddest properties to license the past 10-15 years. I think they had a shot with dungeon fantasy as an underpinning to create a solid setting, but did not. That was an idea that IMO was the best they have had in a long time, but they seem to lack gumption as to pushing it any further (which is understandable, their money from Munchkin and other games is much bigger, and SJ is getting older and probably wants to position the company where he can sell it and sail off, or at least create a revenue stream where he has a good retirement).
Quote from: oggsmash on October 13, 2021, 02:54:07 PMI have a feeling the pathfinder license was a lot like the Rifts license, on sale.
Probably. But the idea worked well enough to lure enough of my PF players to it.
Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on October 13, 2021, 03:00:56 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 13, 2021, 02:54:07 PMI have a feeling the pathfinder license was a lot like the Rifts license, on sale.
Probably. But the idea worked well enough to lure enough of my PF players to it.
Oh that was my point, it was a great idea.
SWADE Core and downstream - the Companion books were conceptually always meant to support the main ruleset for the purposes of GM's doing whatever they wanted with them.
@Oggsmash - there is definitely a lot of sound logic to your analysis. I think especially their choice of licenses and where they're were in their own development cycle, with the Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition showing it's age, I suspect a lot of this is very happy coincidence.
SWADE was in development before they even realized it - as they were cleaning up the rules for Flash Gordon, and somewhere in that mix the development of Savage Rifts was already in the pipe. Savage Rifts came out *before* SWADE (which is why they reissued it under SWADE rules later).
So I do agree that Rifts and Savage Worlds were the perfect combination in terms of timing and respective audience, I know Shane was working on the Fantasy Companion before they ever announced anything for Savage Pathfinder. Again I agree that Pathfinder + Savage Worlds was a genius pairing - because I know personally, that I've had a hard time selling my own players on "D&D using Savage Worlds" - which is weird to me, since it's kinda obvious. But now with Pathfinder firmly in the fold, it feels and plays *solid*.
And in Savage Worlds fashion - I've already made pretty significant changes to Savage Pathfinder to make it closer to Savage D&D 1.5e - and its gobbled up those changes without a single hiccup.
The Savage Fantasy Companion is supposed to be different than Savage Pathfinder - but completely compatible. I'd think of it as an Unearthed Arcana for Savage Pathfinder. But the reality is pretty much all Savage Worlds books and settings are alternate rules to plug-n-play into your game.
I could never get my current players to try Rifts. but now? After running it a few times - they can't *wait* to get back in. It makes me happy to see a lot of Rifts players coming around to it too. With Pathfinder players coming in, and Rifts players coming in - Savage Worlds is really starting to get momentum.
I'm loving hearing in various places, the stories of Pathfinder players getting into Savage Worlds - and you can see the lightbulbs igniting in their eyes when they realize all the potential it has, or how easy it is to things vs. PF/d20, or the possible options that exists for them as players.
Good times ahead
Savage Worlds is a ton of fun. I don't want to oversell it to D&D players, because I think pushing a game too hard sometimes backfires. But I will say, definitely give it an honest try and see how you feel about the system after a few sessions or a campaign. I love the way they use the different dice in the system. I like the simplicity of the game (simple but still meaty enough that it still provides a good foundation for things like tactics). I also do really like the card based initiative system. A lot of people say it is gimmicky. I understand where that reaction comes from but....it is so intuitive. So I think it isn't a gimmick because it actually makes initiative easier than in most other systems IMO. Also this is one of the few games where, for whatever reason, the use of miniatures or tokens doesn't bother me. Normally I prefer strict theater of the mind, but with Savage Worlds I find I can deal with the shift to minies.
Savage Worlds's biggest downside is the chase mechanic.
Oh. My. God. I hate the chase mechanic like nothing else. It is entirely possible I am not reading the rules correctly but the ONE TIME our Rifts group used them it turned into a horrid slog.
I've only used it a couple of times - and it was a slog the first time. Once I got the hang of it, it wasn't a problem. If you make it your own - you could technically use it to create a "chase" ahead of time in terms of setting up obstacles etc. Then it takes on a different kind of play altogether.
I'm wanting to use it for vehicle combat ala Road Warrior. I think I can make something really special out of it.
Or you know... you could just not use it. And do it the ol' fashioned way.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on October 13, 2021, 09:18:45 PM
Savage Worlds's biggest downside is the chase mechanic.
I can believe it. But with the elegance of its resolution system I could slot in some other chase mechanic (or none at all) quite easily.
Quote from: tenbones on October 13, 2021, 10:08:24 PM
I've only used it a couple of times - and it was a slog the first time. Once I got the hang of it, it wasn't a problem. If you make it your own - you could technically use it to create a "chase" ahead of time in terms of setting up obstacles etc. Then it takes on a different kind of play altogether.
I'm wanting to use it for vehicle combat ala Road Warrior. I think I can make something really special out of it.
Or you know... you could just not use it. And do it the ol' fashioned way.
We've been picking at it (both players and GM) to see if we can streamline it.
Honestly, it hasn't come up much. Our last session, we stole a river barge crammed with pre-Rifts treasure, then our technowizard gave it flight and we flew the thing away from the Coalition troopers.
They can't do a chase on you if you outpace them by some ridiculous amount. *taps forehead*
(Well, they did have a couple flying SAMAS suits but my borg killed them dead.)
where I've had success with it is contextualizing each segment as we went - including making some segments into actual obstacles beyond drawing a club, so it created (un)atural chokepoints that forced the party to react naturally as a team.
For example one of our chases were through a thick old-wood forest, the party was being swarmed by a horde of goblins, some mounted, some not - the PC's were mounted, but some of the obstacles in this case a massive briar patch, and forest stream/wash, forced riding checks as well as possible Pace-reduction to ford safely. This actually caused a LOT of mayhem as some PC's had either no riding skill at all, or they dismounted in order to more accurately pick off lead pursuers.
The Chase Rules allowed a very good and gritty abstraction of a very long hunt for the PC's interspersed with a *goddawful* amount of skirmish combat - and I say that in a good way. Because if I left it purely to the stats on paper, the PC's would have been caught, likely it would have been a massacre without the intended chase-element.
I definitely understand how taken at face value the Chase Rules could be kludgy. I think i've been doing Savage Worlds long enough to naturally spruce up whatever is presented for my own needs - which is why most of these subsystems are well designed in my opinion, they give you ample room to jack around with their mechanics as you see fit, intentionally. And of course, you could just not use them at all and use the normal core rules to run a regular chase normally.
It's definitely take-it or leave-it, but I'm finding it useful for very specific stuff. I don't use it for everything.
I completely ignore the chase rules, and simply resolve it with contested pilot checks and comparison of vehicles. I read them, and I understood them, I just didnt see a need for a different game within the game.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 02:02:17 PM
I completely ignore the chase rules, and simply resolve it with contested pilot checks and comparison of vehicles. I read them, and I understood them, I just didnt see a need for a different game within the game.
That's effectively how I do it in all my other games.
And I still do it in SW if I'm not feeling the "chase" is worth the whole pageant of doing it. One of the things I'm playing around with is alluded to kindof in Bedrock's post upthread, is using the cards to give me a third axis on which to express certain things. It's already established in some aspects of the game that that deck-pulls come up with "obstacles" when you pull Clubs. I like this mechanic as sort of an ad-hoc and fast way to make a random-table roll which leverages my itch to improv at the slightest prompt. I know a lot of people struggle with it - but it's something I'm good at. So I kinda feel the deck is not getting enough use - or rather *I* could be using it for a lot more than it is. Which is why some people think its "gimmicky".
The Chase Rules fits right into that weird zone of optional systems that exists, and its challenging me to use it, then bend and twist it and make it better. But I think that Savage Worlds is like that in most cases with its mechanics.
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
MUCH better IMO. I like the power points to fuel magic, and the option to not have them. Giving it a bit of thought though, I do not think I can think of a single RPG of note that I do not like it's magic system better than D&D.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 03:57:47 PMMUCH better IMO. I like the power points to fuel magic, and the option to not have them. Giving it a bit of thought though, I do not think I can think of a single RPG of note that I do not like it's magic system better than D&D.
IMO its much better by itself, and I mean fucking EVERYTHING is better then Vancian.
Id say if you wanted too, you could make specific powers from the listed powers for specific games.
For instance id say the power set could be used to replicate VTM for instance.
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn't feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.
On a completly unrelated note....Anybody here looking for an industrial investigative fantasy SWADE game EST evenings?
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 14, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn't feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.
I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg. However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been. SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters. I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.
From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running. The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business. The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP. So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla. In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies. I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well.
I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more. So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts. So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters. I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW. Probably for the best though.
Quote from: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 14, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn't feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.
I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg. However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been. SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters. I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.
From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running. The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business. The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP. So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla. In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies. I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well.
I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more. So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts. So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters. I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW. Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.
A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.
And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so) and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).
Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.
I'm a bit rusty on my Palladium Rifts systems, but I'm down to compare/contrast...
As for your edition - it sounds like you're using the older Deluxe Edition. Current SWADE edition has Ley Line Walkers at 20PP and they start with 5 Powers. On top of their other abilities (Like Rapid Recharge - where they get 10PP back per hour - and at Veteran Rank this can be increased to 20PP/hr.)
20PP plus 5 Powers is *beefy*. Because the values of the numbers are smaller, the abstraction of the Armor and Damage values make combat less bullet-spongey than Palladium Rifts could be - or closer to what it should be if your PC is packing serious heat.
Bolt -Does 2d6 damage. 3d6 on a Raise for 1PP. For 2PP the caster can increase the damage to 3d6/4d6. If the Ley Line Walker wants to charge it up for +4PP the Bolt now does 4d6 Mega-Damage/5d6 Mega-Damage on a raise. And there are other modifiers they can apply to their cast like Onslaught - which gives your Bolts a RoF of 2 doubling your damage output for *only* 2PP extra.
Standard Modern Deadboy armor (which is pretty damn good armor) is +6 and +1 Toughness. Most modern armor in the game is floating around +4-5 with no other benefits.
Armor of Ithan - you could cut this different ways. If you want to represent it as the "Protection Power" - then standard cast is 1PP and you'll get 2 points of Armor. With a Raise you get 4. If you want to spend an extra 1PP, you can increase the Armor value to 4-points /6-points with a Raise. If you want to spend +1PP you can make the values Toughness instead of Armor - which negates Armor Piercing quality.
Now if you're a Ley Line Walker and you wanna juice it up. You can spend +3PP (For a total of 4PP) and Protection gives you 6-points of Mega-Damage Armor/+8 with a Raise which stacks with all other forms of armor, natural or worn. And can be combined with the Toughness Modifier but not more armor.
So right out of the gate, the Protection power is really powerful. A regular Ley Line walker is coming out of the gate with the ability to be immune to small-arms and all regular damage (which is the vast norm for Rifts contrary to popular belief, outside of PC's of course).
Since Savage Worlds doesn't do depletive HP/MDC - I think it's pretty close in comparison in play.
The other reality is that since Powers in Savage Worlds have other configurations - like Blast, or Burst, that Mega Damage effects tend to be much higher, which still has corollary effects. A solid wall for instance has a Hardness rating of 10. Most Mega-Damage effects are going to disintegrate it. And the effects of Edges will further make Ley Line Walkers (and other Arcane caster really dangerous - like the Blaster Edge, which increases all damage dice from d6 to d8 and gives all AP effects +1).
I'll have to look at the Palladium edition Ley Line Walker, but their Savage Worlds versions are certainly no fucking joke right out of the box. Are there other concepts that more powerful from the starting gate? I think so - I think the Combat Borg in particular, and the Dragon are pound for pound nastier. But this depends entirely on the Ley Line Walkers power-choices. Once the game starts, the Walker will out-utility them without dropping off the powercurve. They're really flexible *and* powerful.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 15, 2021, 01:26:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 14, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn't feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.
I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg. However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been. SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters. I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.
From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running. The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business. The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP. So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla. In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies. I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well.
I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more. So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts. So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters. I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW. Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.
A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.
And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so) and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).
Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.
Savage Worlds did undergo a kind of 3E to 3.5E revision, with Adventurer's Edition (typically abbreviated as SWADE). It changed a few things around.
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 15, 2021, 01:26:49 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on October 14, 2021, 07:49:05 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on October 14, 2021, 05:48:07 PM
Quote from: tenbones on October 14, 2021, 03:52:25 PM
Anyone got some opinions on the Savage Worlds magic system(s) (SWADE, SW Pathfinder, Rifts) holds up in comparison to D&D Vancian magic?
The main problem I had was that in Savage Rifts it didn't feel like magic had the endurance that it did in vanilla Rifts; particularly in relation to the virtually unlimited endurance of cyborgs, robots and even basic firearms.
I always felt magic in vanilla rifts was pretty flaccid compared to the uber technology if we are comparing say a ley line walker and a cyborg. However, I think it is important to remember in rifts, everyone is not on a level playing field and never has been. SW has the ley line walker in closer parity IMO to a borg now, and a cyber knight - who before was IMO a bit weak for what the hype around it implied is neck and neck with the heavy hitters. I guess power points can be in shorter supply, but the chances of a ley line walker actually doing damage to a borg on the first attack now are much higher than they ever were in vanilla rifts.
From a deep gameplay perspective I can only relay the game we have running. The cyborg is a beast, and with a 12.7mm minigun he can smash like no one's business. The ley line walker however, can also do quite a bit of smashing himself, as well as buff said cyborg to be borderline OP. So I am not sure I agree with the magic being less capable in SW than vanilla. In both I always thought they were both quite a bit behind the uber tech...but the catch being they were no reliant on gear, maintenance or power supplies. I think the later world books (as ALL THE WORLDBOOKS DID) had power creep enough to make magic stronger...but they also powered up all the tech as well.
I guess we may see the seams show more as we play more. So my opinion could change, and it has been a really long time since I played vanilla Rifts. So maybe you have a point, I just remember magic being fairly weak in the context of the characters available compared to the tech heavy hitters. I would say the biggest nerf was to the juicer though in bringing the game over to SW. Probably for the best though.
Was there, by chance, an edition change or update to Savage Rifts at some point? Because the edition I'm looking at the Ley Line Walker starts with 15 PPE (maybe 20-25 if he gets really lucky on the hero's journey tables) and something as simple as MD armor costs 5 points to make make it last 3 turns. MD Bolts costs 2 per bolt... so 7-10 shots and you're done. Even with the Improved Rapid Recharge Edge you get back 1 PPE per 15 minutes and normally its 1/hour. They can make checks as actions to absorb PPE from a Ley Line or Nexus.
A Vanilla Rifts Ley Line Walker starts with PPE of 3D6x10+20+PE Attribute (so 135+ is average). Armor of Ethan costs 10 PPE for a minute/level (so 16+ actions even at level 1). A basic attack spells like Electric Arc give you 4+ Mega-Damage mega-damage bolts (1/attack for a melee round) for just 8 PPE. You can recover 15 PPE per hour. They get free PPE every melee round with no action cost from a Ley Line or Nexus Point.
And that's just basic stuff. Spells like Magic Net that are basically fight enders cost just 7 PPE and last for multiple minutes in vanilla Rifts, in Savage Rifts an entangle effect costs 2-4 PPE (of 15-25 or so) and lasts until a successful Strength or Agility test (so could mean they lose just a single action).
Now, like I said, I could be looking at a different Edition of Savage Rifts and Savage Worlds than is current, but to me it felt like a MASSIVE downgrade in magical capability.
If you can, get Power Surge along with Level Headed (and maybe Improved Level Headed). Gaining 10 power points anytime you get a Joker can make a huge difference in spell output.