Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on December 29, 2020, 12:36:56 AMHowever, none of the cultures of Middle-Earth practice any kind of religious worship analogous to real faiths because they all, in Tolkien's conception, predate Judaism and Christianity by thousands of years.

After reading this I thought about it and the only explicit reference to anything like religious worship I can think of in Tolkien is in the downfall of Numenor section of the Silmarillion. At the highest point in Numenor there was a temple to Eru. Which if I remember correctly, Sauron destroys or defiles somehow or other when he comes to Numenor and becomes the King's right hand (not quite) man.

Quote from: Dimitrios on December 31, 2020, 02:39:37 PMAfter reading this I thought about it and the only explicit reference to anything like religious worship I can think of in Tolkien is in the downfall of Numenor section of the Silmarillion. At the highest point in Numenor there was a temple to Eru. Which if I remember correctly, Sauron destroys or defiles somehow or other when he comes to Numenor and becomes the King's right hand (not quite) man.

Correct; Sauron introduced the worship of Morgoth to the kingdom of Numenor just before the Downfall, and this is the only sort of organized religion (complete with, if I recall correctly, eventual human sacrifice) seen in the legendarium.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 31, 2020, 12:25:46 PM
Having read that part of the draft, I must say, I wouldn't have typically associated monotheism with the primal power source, but I think it generally works.

That particular detail was the result of a confluence of anthropological research, adoration for the iconography of the Easter Vigil (and Old Testament), design necessity and the desire to flip expectations in order to counter a lot of the usual "Christian Entertainment" mistakes.

The anthropology angle is this; there is a lot evidence for Native American and Neolithic communities being functionally monotheistic, at least initially. This is most commonly in the form of an all-powerful Great Spirit/Sky Father type figure who joins with an "Earth Mother" (who may or may not be divine) to produce mankind. Other common elements include a host of lesser spirits involved in creating/maintaining the world and veneration of ancestors who play a continued role in helping their descendants and it was common to seek the intercession of the lesser spirits and ancestors in matters.

That sounds quite a bit like Catholic theology; God/Sky Father, Mary/Earth Mother, Lesser Spirits/Angels, Communion of Saints/Ancestors, Intercession/Intercession.

[sidebar] The anthropological theory about the development of classical polytheism is that, as one culture conquered its neighbors, there was an attempt at syncretism. "My God is actually your God, but you are inferior because your Earth Mother was not OUR Earth Mother" (this is believed to be where all Zeus' affairs originated). When a deity was too different to be directly syncretised they were made younger siblings or corrupt older gods that deserved to be overthrown.

Basically... Polytheism was a result of politics while the original (i.e. primal) state was much closer to Monotheism (with supporting pantheism). [/sidebar]

The Easter Vigil angle is pretty straight forward; that Mass is downright Elemental. It begins with a fire that is blessed and then the congregation lights candles from it. We get readings of how God created the world, how God saved Israel from the Egyptians with columns of clouds, columns of fire, winds and parting seas, etc. There is incense (air), baptisms and sprinkling with holy water, bread and wine (explicitly called the fruits of the earth) are brought forth blessed and eaten.

Fire, Air, Water, Earth... this is NOT the God of distant stars and constellations (to which Astral powers are associated)... this is the God of in your face Nature (one of my favorite hymns expressly refers to God as "the lord of sea and sky" "of snow and rain" and "wind and flame" in subsequent verses).

Design necessity was that this project got its start as a spiritual successor to 4E and one of my requirements was a cosmology that could allow the same things as 4E's World Axis while being a distinct and different approach that could not be nailed for IP infringement.

That was the origin of the Heliocentric model and, with The Source as the center of all creation it naturally made sense to tie the elemental creation themes to God as Creator. As mentioned previously, the night sky/stars/constellations just don't have the spiritual punch to work as monotheistic Creator in the way that the spiritual equivalent of The Sun does.

It also made the Demons REALLY easy to feel like those from 4E (which were also elemental) while still adhering to Christian themes (they're fallen angels/primal spirits).

Finally, there was the need to flip expectations. I'm pretty sure I've gone on record before about this, but I think the biggest mistake a lot of Christian Entertainment makes is its fear of showing anything other than "Christ Triumphant" and that if you're a faithful Christian than everything just works out for you without much actual struggle on your part. The result is basically saccharine anti-drama.

The truth is Jesus promised his followers nothing but suffering in this life; persecution by the powers and principalties of the world. Making Christianity the dominant religion that is accepted and beloved just feels like a lie. These days Christianity IS counter-cultural.

So I linked it in my setting not to the bulwarks of civilization, but to the outcasts; the barbarians, the malfeans, the Eldritch (and to a lesser extent, to Death, in Venetrix and the Fetches). It's old power, older than any civilization. It's got unusual powers (primal boons in place of normal utility spells) and the spellcasting class associated with it makes it plain these are not abilities the PC had any say in receiving (vs. the formal pacts with spiritual powers of astal spellcasting or the Clarke's Law wizardry) so it's NOT something any power of this world can control (nor is it in violation of Catholic theology on magic as the supernatural gifts are essentially charisms).

Prophets (or Speakers/Spokesmen, which is an alternate translation of the term that I use) crying out in the Wilderness, Judges with supernatural powers (think Sampson's strength), remnants awaiting the day of salvation and nomads/shepherds instead of civilization/farmers all work in harmony with a Christian-themed faith.

And frankly, the idea that those looking to be edgy outcasts in the setting are going to be going to go with the Christian analogue rather than some New Age/pagan/atheistic option just appeals to me.

Similarly, associating the Astral and civilization with polytheism (and I did make the effort to make them polytheistic rather than henotheisc) also makes it easier to run/incorporate classical mythology into adventures for those who desire it in a way that making civilization = monotheism and barbarian = pagan would not.

Leaving out the option for pagan worship turns people away unnecessarily, so the idea is to at least present a version of it that draws upon the myths and legends that extol the classical virtues of the Ancient World rather than something people would more easily associate with a New Age/Gaia-worship type religion.

So that's the deep dive into that design decision.

QuoteYou caught me, I was being a bit weasel-wordy there. What I really meant was "religious" -- I'm Catholic, and so the basic cosmic nihilism that underlies Lovecraftian horror is simply something I can't buy into for any great length of time, not and still enjoy the story.  But calling it a "philosophical" difference tends to be less prone to side-tracking such discussions into religious arguments, which I've found the hard way seldom get anywhere productive.

I find it quite interesting as fellow Catholic - as my intuition was always that nihilistic cosmic horror of HPL is directed first and foremost into atheism, into rationalism and scientism - including atheism and rationalism of HPL himself first and foremostly. I played one campaign in CoC - 5 sessions overall - and through random rolls from big table I played a Catholic Priest (not my best game as investigative streak in my pushed Father Arkady bit too much into Occultist Detective than he should be), but also... maybe due my GM being also Catholic - it was hardly cosmic nihilism.
Sure there were innatural monsters, sure my priest finally get 17 points out of Sanity which resulted in his untimely death by kamikazing a shoggoth - but TBH such random occult and monster shenanigans of Cthulhu cults - while of course whole metaphysics of Cthulhu is incompatible with Catholicism - but guess so - it's the same with D&D - from in-verse perspective of my priest it was not a reason to loose faith. He was born in simple peasant family - ultimately sure - there could exist some flying dragon monsters in service of Satan-worshippers, and weird IndoEgyptian snakes with heads almost like head of human - it's terrible - but hey it's just monsters, Bible also mention various weird creatures.

I know some would say it's heresy - but looking from inside of setting - unless you play with character with very Lovecraftian believes - your CoC stories should not be Lovecraftian in spirit. Because most of humanity would treat it way differently than HPL, I mean damn it - all POCs in his stories are all fine with worshipping space Gods, which means black people are in fact MORE RATIONAL than pasty Anglos in HPL-verse because they recognize truth of Space Gods and worships them, while whites go all mad and whiny because MUH SCIENCE.

It went bit more ranty that I planned.

QuoteI never understood the appeal of "planar adventures". I get where it comes from. It's a riff on the old myths of hero's journeying to the underworld, etc.. But adding MOAR!! and turning it to 11 has the same effect of having 12 playable PC races. When everything fantastical and special is common - the sense of wonder is gone. Because familiarity does breed a kind of contempt.

Part of it is specificaly - Order of the Stick style - where there is no wonder and mechanics of D&D is heavy reality all characters are concious in-verse.

QuoteExcept that D&D's polytheism isn't some new thing from Seattle-based hippy designers -- it was written into the game by creators Gygax and Arneson in the 1970s.

Weren't clerics sort of afterthought in D&D after fighter and magic-user turned out to suck against undead?

QuoteUnless there's literally a god of technological progress why would any of these people have advanced beyond hunter-gatherers? If this life is known to be just a temporary stopover en route to an eternal life, why even bother with improving your technology when it does nothing to improve your odds of entering the next life? Unless you worship the god/goddess of fertility, why even bother reproducing?

Because gods want new worshippers so beyond some insane demon Lords of antinatalism they would punish you for such laziness. Even those not interested specifically in breeding.
Because ultimately they are team and depends on each other. They are not transcendent towards reality so they cannot ignore it. They need WORSHIPPERS.

QuotePretty much. D&D's polytheism doesn't even resemble real life polytheism. It's just this weird henotheistic aberration based around gods as conceived by people who don't understand how actual pagan pantheons work. And it's all based around emerging fantasy tropes that sprang along with D&D and similar media, not "Leftist" ideology.

I think it's bit Conanesque. Conan is henotheists. Evil cultists he slay are henotheists. Mitraists we meet are henotheists.

QuoteIMHO this dual attraction/disappointment is why a Middle Earth RPG is one of the evergreen properties in the hobby, and also why it will always be a 3rd tier RPG franchise at least two steps behind D&D in popularity.

But then till One Ring RPG there were basically no playable Tolkien-games.

QuoteI wouldn't call it henotheistic, because henotheism emerged from pantheism and has different characteristics than D&D's religions. D&D's version is monotheism, crudely back-pasted onto pantheism by monotheists who didn't get pantheism.

It's common mistake to use henotheism in this way. Proper way for D&D religion though is not monotheism - duh - but MONOLATRISM - you accept existence of many deities, but focus your worship on one and one only - as some speculated early Israel did - they sort of believed Baals and Asheras of fellow Semitic are real - but OUR GOD KICKS ASSES so why even bother.

QuoteBasically... Polytheism was a result of politics while the original (i.e. primal) state was much closer to Monotheism (with supporting pantheism). [/sidebar]

This seems to be quite viable in terms of Europe - but then there are primitivst animist religion - often lacking Skyfather - or putting him very distant being and caring only to appease minor spirits - and some politheisitc elements could arise from this as well. That's way harder to pinpoint to monotheism.

Nevertheless there were clear examples where such syncretism gave birth to more advanced polytheisms - whole Summer-Akkad-Babylon-Assyria spectrum with patron-gods being merged in one pantheon, and probably simmilarly with rise of Egyptian civilisation.

QuoteThe truth is Jesus promised his followers nothing but suffering in this life; persecution by the powers and principalties of the world. Making Christianity the dominant religion that is accepted and beloved just feels like a lie. These days Christianity IS counter-cultural.

Well but that depends on what period your showing.
Trying to emulate current zeitgeist in fake medieval heroic fantasy is quite counterintuitive - current zeitgeist is very much result of social and technological changes.
And when Christianity met real pagans - not modern wiccans or liberals but pagans - it mostly conquered them quite easily aside of few systems that have enough of developed philosophical thought to counter us - which let's say Celts or Wikings or even Mediterrean pagans lacked profoundly (with their dominant philosophies being vastly separated from their traditional cults).

So this is certain problems - most of fantasy games are based on times - when we were persecuted but vital young faith spreading like a madmans around world, or time of our quite stable powerful civilisation...

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 02, 2021, 03:16:19 PM
This seems to be quite viable in terms of Europe - but then there are primitivst animist religion - often lacking Skyfather - or putting him very distant being and caring only to appease minor spirits - and some politheisitc elements could arise from this as well. That's way harder to pinpoint to monotheism.

Fun fact, I've brought a pair of family friends and their daughter (my goddaughter) into the Catholic Church from their following the Lakota faith in large part by pointing out the many similarities between Lakota beliefs and Catholic ones (fun fact, many Catholic parishes that support the Lakota tribes use burning sage in place of holy water dispensers in their churches because the purpose of the holy water sacramental is the same as the purpose behind wafting sage smoke) and how they weren't so much abandoning their faith as they were getting a broader perspective of it.

Honestly? I've had an easier time finding points of religious commonality with Native American tribal religions and Catholicism than with some Protestant religions. That and the aforementioned prevailing Sky Father/Great Spirit figure in PIE descended ethnic groups is probably a big part of why linking my Christian-analogue religion to natural forces and what would generally be considered more "primative" made a lot of sense to me.

Quote
Well but that depends on what period your showing.

It does. But that said, the time period that my system attempts to model most closely is "Thundarr the Barbarian."

Of all the words of screen or pen, the saddest are these: Pundit is right again.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-feywild-unearthed-arcana/

Rabbitfolk and owlfolk. It Begins.

Quote from: RandyB on March 14, 2021, 08:34:54 PM
Of all the words of screen or pen, the saddest are these: Pundit is right again.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-feywild-unearthed-arcana/

Rabbitfolk and owlfolk. It Begins.

That is the first time that has ever happened.  Never seen Rabbitfolk before 5e.

I guess it depends.

If we're getting Usagi Yojimbo-esque rabbit folk, then I can live with that.

I got a bad feeling that's not gonna be how it rolls.

(I really can't talk much shit, I still wanna play a grippli bard in PF and name him Kermit)

Quote from: Shasarak on March 14, 2021, 10:06:22 PM

Quote from: RandyB on March 14, 2021, 08:34:54 PM
Of all the words of screen or pen, the saddest are these: Pundit is right again.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-feywild-unearthed-arcana/

Rabbitfolk and owlfolk. It Begins.

That is the first time that has ever happened.  Never seen Rabbitfolk before 5e.

In my gonzo RPGing days, I had a Hoop from Gamma World who plane travelled to our generic D&D campaign world. I know that's not common, but we were using the AD&D conversion optional rules.

Quote from: Ghostmaker on March 15, 2021, 08:19:27 AM
I guess it depends.

If we're getting Usagi Yojimbo-esque rabbit folk, then I can live with that.

I got a bad feeling that's not gonna be how it rolls.

(I really can't talk much shit, I still wanna play a grippli bard in PF and name him Kermit)

I could see a campaign world with humanoid animals as PC races, kinda like Narnia with it's talking animals.

That was basically the premise of the Iron Claw rpg. Everyone was an anthropomorphic animal. I played it once and admit I appreciated the punny humor of a being a dog paladin named Dominic St. Bernard.

Quote from: RandyB on March 14, 2021, 08:34:54 PM
Of all the words of screen or pen, the saddest are these: Pundit is right again.

https://comicbook.com/gaming/news/dungeons-dragons-feywild-unearthed-arcana/

Rabbitfolk and owlfolk. It Begins.

As usual, I told you all so.