Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 28, 2021, 11:11:49 AM
That's pretty much how I see it, too.  I just don't think any mechanics can rein in a dick GM.  So CR, build-rules, whatever, doesn't matter if the DM is going to be lousy.

Though I will say that not every encounter should be a combat one.  I run monsters the players can't beat all the time.  I lament that most 5e wandering monster tables are based on level/CR and not terrain.  Sometimes the fun is in the negotiating (with intelligent critters) or the escape...

Its less about reining in dick GM's as about making clear to everyone that they're being a dick. Some systems by their lack of guidelines could easily see the PCs put up against a monster they have no chance of beating without the GM realizing it ahead of time... and accidents happens so its hard to tell whether it was an accident or a GM being a dick.

When you have the clear guidelines though, it makes it more obvious there's a problem. When the party can't hit the monster with anything but a natural 20 and its dealing out enough damage to straight kill a PC in a single hit you KNOW they're using a monster way above the recommended CR and its not an accident and the players know its not an accident and can respond accordingly.

The deadly monster was placed deliberately, but if there were also warnings that it was coming (possibly only recognized in hindsight, but regardless allowing you to retreat before ever encountering it if you'd recognized them) and/or opportunities to flee/negotiate with the deadly monster then you know GM is just running a deadly campaign where you'll need to pay attention and react quickly to survive... all is well.

If there was neither warning nor chance to negotiate or escape the monster and because of the system you know that a monster certain to be deadly was placed deliberately then you know they're a dick (or at least having a bad day).

* * *

I'm also all for impossible to beat monsters; though I prefer to have the players learn they're going to be impossible before it kills a PC. I made a point in my own system of setting damage such that a PC will almost certainly survive ONE attack from even much stronger monsters (a level 1 PC has 25-30 hp; a level 8 monster does 24-ish damage with an attack)... so that groups who DO stumble onto something they can't handle, and don't have the system knowledge to fire off game stats of every monster, still have ONE chance to recognize they're hopelessly outmatched (i.e. when the first hit smacks a PC from full health to almost dropped because I also don't have 5e's ridiculous no consequences zero hit point yo-yo) and still be able to run like hell.

But that has to do with my system default also being in the vein of "Big Damn Heroes"... there's plenty of things that can kill you, but turning a PC into Tasha Yar isn't any fun for anyone. I at least want a PC to have a chance to save themselves from something they didn't have a choice about (if they don't choose to run like hell after that first hit though... their PC's death is on their own heads).

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 05:44:30 PM
For me benefit is coherence.

Fair enough. If you find value in it and it works for you, it works for you.

QuoteWhich would be no problem in any skill based setting. Damn in skill-based setting you could easily play shopkeeper who is excellent knife-thrower without caring a little bit about fitting it into class/level concept.

For what it's worth, I like skill-based RPGs, too. I play a lot of BRP-based games, for example. I just don't like skill systems grafted onto the class/level approach in D&D.

That said, I don't find things like the "0-level merchant who can throw knives like a 7th level fighter" to be a problem in purely class/level D&D, either. I mean, that one phrase pretty much defines it without any fuss. :shrugs:

I mean for NPC who's build is whatever indeed it has no fuss. For PC - it's impossibility.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 09:37:43 PM
I mean for NPC who's build is whatever indeed it has no fuss. For PC - it's impossibility.

Ah, I see. If you're looking to *play* a character (especially long-term/ongoing) who is "just a shopkeeper" but can throw knives really, really well I'd say D&D (and its archetype/class/level approach to PCs) is probably not the game system to choose. I'd pick a different system that better suits what you're after and save D&D for the kind of games that D&D does well.

Knife-throving shopkeepers needs to become next big class/archetype for D&D though. Like bards and warlocks become.
I'd call them dagger peddlers.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 29, 2021, 11:19:20 AM
Knife-throving shopkeepers needs to become next big class/archetype for D&D though. Like bards and warlocks become.
I'd call them dagger peddlers.

This is why I separated combat from non-combat elements in my system into class and background respectively.

Background determines your skills and various background related boons ("Better Bargaining" being one for Artisans and Travelers, the two backgrounds most likely to be merchants that gives bonuses for negotiating costs when buying or selling goods).

Combat ability is entirely determined by class and if you don't want to be either a warrior or spellcaster, the combat class for your adventuring peddler in my system would be the Mastermind, who uses their intellect, wits and presence to distract foes and create openings for their allies.

They could be good at throwing knives too, nothing precludes a mastermind from being a competent warrior (though not on the level of a fighter generally), but their combat focus is mainly on encouraging their allies.

As I've seen it expressed... The Barbarian hits an enemy with his axe, the Mastermind hits his enemy with the Barbarian.

So something a bit like 4e Warlord?

QuoteThis is why I separated combat from non-combat elements in my system into class and background respectively.

I have bit mixed feelings about it - but then it's usual D&D thing right.
One person here said about his games that it's characters have like 3 roles each: Combat, Explorator and Social, that was sort of neat idea - as equivalent of unified skill system.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 29, 2021, 01:03:05 PM
So something a bit like 4e Warlord?

More specifically a fully supported version of the Lazylord build (the warlord proper is represented by the Captain path for the Fighter). Basically, a combat class for those whose concept involves specifically NOT being particularly good at combat or magic, but still gives them something to do when a combat does break out.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 29, 2021, 01:03:05 PM

QuoteThis is why I separated combat from non-combat elements in my system into class and background respectively.

I have bit mixed feelings about it - but then it's usual D&D thing right.
One person here said about his games that it's characters have like 3 roles each: Combat, Explorator and Social, that was sort of neat idea - as equivalent of unified skill system.

The main thing splitting combat class and background (and making background as mechanically weighty as the class half) does for me is allow my system to express way more concepts in a smaller space.

For example, one of my backgrounds is Barbarian. Combine it with one set of fighter options (daring focus, berserker style, ravager path) and you have a 3e style barbarian. Combine it with swift wary striker fighter and you've got a ranger. Combine it with the Mystic class and you can get various flavors of druid, shaman, etc. Swap out Barbarian for Outlaw and those same combos give you a underworld Pit Fighter, a two-weapon rogue and a mystic from a land where their beliefs are persecuted.

Between the Fighter's paths (brigand, captain, defender, disabler, ravager, sentinel, sharpshooter and striker) and the backgrounds (arcanist, aristocrat, artisan, barbarian, commoner, entertainer, military, outlaw, religious and traveler) alone you've got 80 possible combinations that would have otherwise been separate classes (or just not expressed at all for most), but with the split are encapsulated by 18 entries.

Now throw in the mastermind class and the paths for the gadgeteer, mystic, theurge and wizard classes (abjurer, benedictor, empowered, interdictor, maledictor and summoner) and that's hundreds of concepts that can be expressed by the combination of a few smaller data sets.

Or, short version; adding a third data point to the usual race/class set adds enough extra concepts to be worth the marginal increase in complexity.

If I may so: how many races / classes (I assume each of Fighter paths is a class on it's own) / Backgrounds you have in total?

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 28, 2021, 07:51:09 PM
For what it's worth, I like skill-based RPGs, too. I play a lot of BRP-based games, for example. I just don't like skill systems grafted onto the class/level approach in D&D.

I understand your sentiment. To offer a different perspective, the problem I had when I wanted to share or publish the stuff I been doing with the Majestic Wilderlands is rooted in the fact that I let players "trash" my setting. Become a landed lord, a magnate, or even king displacing those who in those positions already.

I found when one focus on that, things other than fighting or spellcasting become important. I made do with AD&D 1e but my frustrations built up until I found Fantasy HERO and switched to it. Later I switched to GURPS for three editions and two decades.

In hindsight I gravitated to those system for two reasons one is not relevant to this thread, the other is the fact those and the other played in those decades allowed character to be better at things outside of combat and spellcasting. And because the end goals were so varied, becoming the king in one campaign became building an inn in another. Having a party with characters filling different roles didn't always cut it for what the players wanted to do. And what they needed to do and what they need to have at the start wasn't quite what they needed to succeed in the final steps towards goal.

Skill based systems solved this issue.

But doing this in the skill based system I liked and sharing what I did with other either non-commercially or commercially wasn't really an option. There wasn't any kind of 3PP opportunity or license I could take advantage of. But there was on for D&D but I wasn't interested in 3.X either. Then came along the OSR and now I had access for a variety of classic edition.

Swords & Wizardry Core was the closest to what I considered to an ur-system. In that it had all the elements that people considered to be the classic edition in their most basic forms.  So I got to work.  One of the first issues I tackled is not just allowing character to do things outside of combat or spellcasting. The popularization of rulings not rules that taking hold in after 2008 took care of that. The primary issue how to have some characters be better at doing certain things outside of combat and spellcasting.

So I came up with a skill system. I also didn't regulate to a handful of related classes either. But even a fighter, magic-user, or cleric on their way to their endgoal found being better something outside of combat or spellcasting useful to that goal. Although their primary focus still is what it is their class can do.

I called it an ability system because the spirit of the editions I started with was that any character can attempt anything outside of combat or spellcasting. There wasn't the sense like in GURPS if you didn't have the skill you could do it or were really crappy at it. So with the ability system I said any character can attempt any ability except some are better at certain abilities than other. So Fighters had a bonus to Athletics, while Magic-User had a bonus to Thaumatology. And often had a decent chance of succeeding (1d20+ability modifier + assigned ability bonus>= 15).

Now I have my bias, I jettisoned the Thief because I felt how the class worked was an afterthought and not very D&Dish. In it place I created a series of Rogue classes starting with the Burglar.  What distinguished the Rogue classes was the fact they were better than other character doing things outside of combat or spellcasting as represented by the ability system.

As for the question of template, in my Majestic Fantasy rules, the classes are in essence the templates I used when running GURPS. Just detailed in a way that is consistent with the classic editions.

I am going into detail about this because sometimes some tweaking is all one needs to make a system work with how one wants to run a campaign. In my case "trashing" the setting.

And I recently repeated much of this with 5th edition as well.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 29, 2021, 07:00:58 PM
If I may so: how many races / classes (I assume each of Fighter paths is a class on it's own) / Backgrounds you have in total?

Ten Races (well, species, as I've pointed out my issues with it given the variety available... I can also justify it due to the post-apocalypse of a magitech utoptia; arcane magic has a very "sufficiently advanced technology" vibe to it, but its not overtly stated so the GM can run it any which way they prefer.

Beastmen covers an array of species (including centaurs, crocodin, goblins, kobolds, minotaurs and wolfen among many others) created as slaves by the First Empire. Through revolution and an alliance with the Astral Gods they won their freedom and have maintained their fierce independence ever since.

Dwarves are descended from Men warped into a slave race ideal for the hellish mines of the Demon Empire. The process was effective, but unstable, as limbs and organs withered at different rates. The dwarves invented arcane magic and prosthesis to counteract this flaw and used their wonders to aid Men and the primal spirits in driving the demons from the world.

Eldritch are primal spirits who were too cowardly to take a side in the war between the victorious primal spirits and their fallen brethren. For their cowardice, they were exiled to the Mortal World until they can prove worthy of being a protector of Creation. Locked into forms ranging from humans with elemental features, to talking beasts, sprites and even giants and dragons, they have lived at the fringes of the world since the dawn of history. Over the ages many Eldritch gave up all hope of returning to the Primal Realms and seek their own ends in the Mortal World, yet some of the greatest heroes of any age are those Eldritch who still take up the cause of redemption.

Elves entered the Mortal World during the Cataclysm that shattered the barriers between realms. They hail from the Astral Realms where they were the embodiments of Men's dreams of themselves. More comely and possessed of astral abilities, many elves believe they are Men perfected, but they are just as flawed as the dreams they once embodied. Most live in a rigid caste-based society echoing their existence in the Astral Realms. Those who reject their place are labeled Dark Elves; casteless outcasts worthy only of scorn (at least by other elves).

Fetches are the shadowy spirit servants of the goddess of death and transition. They travel the world in wandering clans using their shadow-touched abilities to give comfort to the sick and dying and to destroy the undead.

Gnomes hail from the same Dream realm as the Elven peoples, but while elves were the embodiments of the dreams of Men, gnomes embody the dreams of children. They resemble elven children, but like Peter Pan and his Lost Boys, they never grow up and most live ageless carefree lives in the wilds of the world. Those who do take up the life of an adventurer do so for the sheer joy of seeing new things and accomplishing the impossible.

Golems are 'living' relics of the Praetorian Empire. Opting not to create sapient slaves who could rebel, the Praetorian Empire instead created artificial beings of metal and other materials programmed to serve them. The Praetorian Empire was wiped away with the Cataclysm and with it, the ability to reset the golems' programming that kept them from evolving sapience. Now free of those limits, free-willed golems now seek to find their own place in the world in addition to fulfilling the purposes for which they were created.

Humans are the natural native inhabitants of the Mortal World and their history is one of successive rises and falls of mighty empires each seeming to reach higher only to fall further than the one that preceded it. Over time they have bred with their cousins, shadows, reflections and even Eldritch to create bloodlines with dwarven, eldritch, elven, fetch and mutant traits.

Malfeans are the cursed descendants of demons and mortal women. The first were born in the Demon Empire and used by their demonic parents as overseers of their slave legions. Even millennia after the empire's fall, their descendants still bear the demonic taint as strongly as the first of their line and suffer the ancient blood debts many still feel they owe. At best they are regarded with distrust. More often, they are feared, hated, enslaved or even hunted to pay for the sins of their ancestors and so regard survival as their primary virtue.

Mutants are the result of the terrible energies unleashed by the Cataclysm. Both man and beast were twisted into fearsome creatures whose mutations persisted from generation to generation. Those who kept their reason and intellect live on the fringes of society and are often pitied for their deformities or feared for the instability of their forms and, sometimes, their mind (these include orcs, ogres, trolls, ettins, cyclops and troglodytes).

* * * *

There are six playable classes (and two non-playable in the default setting, those who want a world with different metaphysical rules could also play a Necromancer or Diabolist... both of which destroy the free will of the practitioner in the default setting... fine for NPC villains, not so fine for PCs, even villainous PCs);

Fighters use their training and innate strength of mind and body to overcome their foes. They are knights, soldiers, mercenaries, hunters, brigands and many others. Regardless, they use martial prowess to protect and aid allies and to outmaneuver and defeat foes for any cause they choose to fight for. Fighters select a combat style (strong, swift or berserker), a combat focus (daring, tactical or wary), and a path;
- Brigand: Your skill in combat lies in seeking the openings in your foes' defenses that your allies cannot see and exploiting them by whatever means necessary.
- Captain: You are skilled combatant and leader of men whose clever tactics and inspiring words allow your allies to pull off heroic feats they never believed themselves capable of.
- Defender: In the line of battle, you are the shield that stands between your allies and your foes, using your prodigious skill at arms to hold the line and push your foes back.
- Disabler: You use rapid and precise strikes to hinder and disable multiple enemies in close combat.
- Ravager: You are a hero who relies upon force of arms to become a veritable wall of destructive force.
- Sentinel: You are a skilled watchman who provides covering fire to allies and pins down his foes.
- Sharpshooter: You have trained to pull off amazingly precise attacks with ranged weapons that allow you to harry, harass and incapacitate your foes.
- Striker: You use your precision and speed in conjunction with offhand strikes to quickly bring down even the largest of foes.

Masterminds focus on finding ways to aid their allies in combat while rarely engaging in combat directly themselves. While they can be passable in combat, their greatest strengths are in creating openings for allies to act and motivating them to push harder than they knew they were capable of to achieve success. Masterminds also select a combat focus (daring, tactical or wary).

Gadgeteers interface with magic through complex formulas encoded into custom-built devices that allow spell effects to be produced at the press of a few buttons if you have studied the arcane principles necessary to do so. Gadgeteers further define themselves by their focus (big lug, monkeywrencher, mad genius, or troubleshooter) and their spellcasting path (see below).

Mystics seek spiritual union with the primal power of The Source and, in so doing, gain supernatural gifts. While most come to this by adhering to the tenants of The Covenant, others, called Sorcerers, have an innate connection. Mystics choose an inner spirit (clever, logical, potent or swift) and a spellcasting path (see below).

Theurges gain supernatural abilities by forming pacts with one or more astral powers such as the astral gods. Those who seek pacts outside official religions are often labeled 'Warlocks' and hunted down by agents of those faiths. Theurges choose an astral focus (faithful, militant or zealous) and a spellcasting path (see below).

Wizards work magic through the Arcane Web; a network of power that can be directed by complex formulas entered into it through implements, spoken words and gestures. Wizards choose a focus (lore, social or war) and a spellcasting path (see below).

The spellcasting classes share paths because while the routes are different, what people try to use magic for falls into some pretty definable patterns;
- Abjurer: You specialize in creating magical wards to protect yourself and your allies from harm.
- Benedictor: You are a specialist in using spells to magnify the abilities of yourself and your allies.
- Empowered: You have focused your ability to wield magic inward, enhancing your personal abilities and allowing you to pummel your foes in close combat as easily as you can at a distance.
- Interdictor: You specialize in producing and shaping a wide range of spell effects that confound, impair and disable multiple foes at time.
- Maledictor: You specialize in blasting multiple foes with the most painful of magical effects.
- Summoner: You are an expert at summoning creatures to fight for you and can call forth creatures of far greater ability than other spellcasters (yes, other spellcasters can summon, summoners just do it WAY better).

* * * *

Lastly, there are 10 backgrounds;

Arcanists are students of arcane magic who employ variety of useful spells. You probably started as an apprentice to another arcanist or perhaps taught yourself how to perform magic after finding an old spellbook in a dusty ruin or even puzzled out some spells on your own after a talent for magic emerged. The spells an arcanist focuses on aren't useful to attack with (that's what the arcane classes focus on), but they offer a lot of boon to an arcanist's capabilities.

Aristocrats were born into a wealthy and powerful family; a noble, merchant prince or court official. Though not automatically heir to wealth or titles, being part of the upper classes confers both advantages and duties upon their lives that few others enjoy. Some become adventurers as sport or see it as a duty to their realm or family. Others might be fleeing unpleasant duties or their family was overthrown or lost its fortune due to mismanagement or treachery and becoming an adventurer is the only hope of regaining what was lost.

Artisans were craftsmen, inventors, artists or sages before even before they started down the path of becoming an adventurer. Your talents may be derived from practical hands-on experience on your own or as an apprentice or by extensive book learning; you may have even picked up a smattering of minor arcane spells along the way, but first your talents relate to finding practical applications to the knowledge in your head.

Barbarians hail from the regions beyond the walled towns and farmlands most think of as civilization. Your people gather in clans or tribes led by chiefs, elders and wise men or women. Your abilities are focused on survival in the wilds and some are even able to form connections to the primal spirits that dwell there.

Commoners were peasants, villagers and others of low birth before they took up the path of adventure. They often struggle to survive inside a system designed to exploit them and learn talents that help them do so. For all its danger, a single adventure might bring you more wealth than most other commoners would earn in a year of backbreaking labor and those commoners who survive such things often become folk-heroes to other commoners.

Entertainers were actors, acrobats, bards or other types of performers before they became adventurers. You learned all manner of talents to distract people from their dreary existences, even if for a moment. Doing so can earn you the funds you need to survive and that doesn't hurt either. Entertainers most likely become adventurers either as a means of supplementing their modest incomes or in order to find new epic stories to share with their patrons.

Military backgrounds are extremely common among adventurers. You may have been a professional soldier, an officer or a mercenary, but when there's not a war to be fought, there's very little other use for the mastery of weapons, tactics and strategy than to find your own cause to fight for. Or perhaps you were once a guard who decided they could make a better living elsewhere. Regardless, you have learned to apply your talents to support your comrades.

Outlaws are anyone who has no legal protections within society, even to their own persons. You might be a criminal, an escaped slave, a rebel against the current ruler or just someone whom a corrupt ruler took disfavor too. Regardless, you've had only your wits and luck on your side and your talents mostly revolve around surviving in a world where anyone has the right to kill you in your sleep without fear of punishment. Those who survive as an outlaw for any length of time often become legends in their own right.

Religious are the ordained followers of a religion and act as intermediaries between the common man and the worlds beyond. Depending on their faith, they might be priests, religiously sworn knights or shamans and spirit talkers. They learn the deepest secrets of their faith and how to call upon astral or primal power to achieve miracles for their fellow believers.

Travelers are merchants, sailors, vagabonds and others who don't spent much time in one place but travel well beyond the borders most common people know on a regular basis. Without the ties to any one place, the wandering life of many adventurers feels natural to you. Your talents aid you in your travels, survival skills, languages, seamanship and knowledge of distant places.

* * * *

If you have any further questions, lemme know.

I started with becmi, most of my dnd playing/dm'ing was 2e FR & ravenloft, about equal parts 1e and 3e bracketing that; never tried 4e or 5e, and do only D6 system now. I list as a dm 3e as my favorite of dnd editions, but in a general sense and only due to things such as unified roll high d20 mechanic, saves reworked into 3 simple categories(is a wand of paralysis a save vs wands or a save vs paralysis?), status effects and stacking logic being nailed down, etc...if i was a pedantic computer logic reader of the rules i would hate 3e as being broken and caster-centric, which were only problems if one was slavishly devoted to raw.

I realize all the pepperoni and stormfart fallacies etc; but i still hold the reason we are tabletop and not vidya is precisely because human adjudication cannot and should not ever be separated or automated from the experience; i don't care how monty or skip worded it you can chop your way free of the tentactles and evard can get rectally probed, i'm sorry that whoever wrote the spell you copied into your book was subtely wrong about its operation, it happens a lot with a copy of a copy of a copy kid.

I thought templates were a great innovation, and feats were a great attempt but should have instead been written as exceptions into the standard rules at the point in the rules that said rules are described; exceptions that any character can utilize for some type of xp cost or metacurrency on the fly.

At present in playing with D6 system I convert a lot from older D&D products, but generally use 3e as a basis because 3e gave us the ability scores of critters and in D6 all things flow as skills or powers from the base attribute of charisma or agility or such. Thus when consuming osr things, or things from 1e/2e, i must first convert to 3e before applying my translative formula for D6. I've not even attempted to convert anything from 4e or 5e.

Recently fiddling with converting osr content has given me a boner for the hexcrawl, and i'm presently learning to utilize hexographer and worldographer before committing to purchase the full package, especially since I'd dreamed up a viable mass battle system for D6 system and the hexcrawl and the domain management angle are always captivating for me as either player or dm. I've not yet put font to screen, only pen to scrapbook, as to a codifed system for domain managment in D6 to dovetail the mass battle system i've nearly completely contrived, but things such as rules cyclopedia, becmi's companion/master portion, 3e's stronghold builders guidebook, birthright setting, and the classic age of kings-stronghold2-stronghold legends video games are all things i am trying to channel for that purpose, and to a large degree pundits' dark albion and chaos cults books have been very inspiring as well.

Thanks to the creative, mechanical, and philosophical sparks lent me by Durran and Grimace over at a now seemingly defunct D6 forum, I've pieced together a formula/operation for smooth 3e to D6 conversion that would allow one to very smoothly operate from the 3e books on the mechanical framework of D6, using D6 resolution methods with all numbers and such being directly transferrable. While some might consider that a form of ambrosia in itself, I feel I must go further, as the direct transference brings with it inherent mechanical imbalances native in 3e wrt casters for example.

I must run it all one more time through a D6 distillation filter if you will to make it "run better" to suit my personal preference. The direct transference gives you D6 system 3e rather than d20 3e; and that would be great for say a FR campaign set in ancient netheril with its flying cities and rampant spell flinging, but for something more semi-historical/medieval authentic (which would take best advantage of D6 system mechanics/resolution methods for magic over the dnd vancian model) you would want to for example do away with spell memorization/spell slots that auto-work and are a free daily resource, thus curbing caster power.

Typical steps in the base transference process are :
1) convert ability scores to equivalent D6 attributes, including static whole numbers like str18 to physique 4D via the durran method (theres a chart). Racial ability modifiers become pip adjustments under D6, a +4 to str for say, an ogre or something would become a 1D+1 bonus to physique attribute.

2) Use similar chart to convert skill names from dnd to D6, treating ranks as pip-above-attribute increases as per normal D6. Adopt the class and level concept, replacing normal D6 character point expenditure for skill increase with lvl based skill ranks from 3e treated as pip increases. Treat xp from 3e as 25 per character point, ergo making 40 character points required to purchase lvl up from first to second lvl; enforcing 3e's max skill rank concept (ignore cross-class concept) means purchasing lvl up is still desired even if normal cp expenditure for skill increase is allowed. DO GOLD FOR XP; BY MY MATH 5 GOLD PER XP AND 25 XP PER CHARACTER POINT WORKS QUITE SMOOTHLY IN PLAY TEST. (one could adopt the spells known/memorized/spell slots concept too if, for example running a high magic game in netheril)

3) BaB of 3e becomes pip-above-attribute increases to combat skills, iterative attacks denoting primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary preference among the default D6 combat skills (melee combat, fighting, thrown, marksmanship) in the order the player prefers. (so +20/+15/+10/+5 for a fighter20 would become +20 pips(6D+2) above base attribute applied to one D6combat skill, +15 pips(5D) to another, and so on)

4) Base Saves become a whole number modifier to attribute resist rolls ( do not utilize skills such as dodge or mettle to function as reflex or will save equivalents)

5) AC converts straight by simply removing AC bonuses for size(use D6 system scale concept instead) and bonuses for hardness/toughness/natural armor like scales or chainmail over to D6's damage resist function of combat resolution (as either whole number bonuses or pips as you prefer), leaving you with the default printed D6 to-hit difficulty for someone not dodging or parrying (which is a base 10 modified by proximity). Should a 3e ability modifier become an important part of calculation, the D6 equivalent is 1 per full die of relevant ability score/attribute.

6) caster lvl checks become in D6 system a roll of casting attribute (which is the extranormal attribute under D6 if not doing a netheril style game, or using charisma/intellect/acumen as in a straight conversion) +1 per caster level.

7) save dc's become either an opposed roll under normal D6 system rules (for a lower powered campaign) or are 10+spell lvl +1 per die of skill or attribute that governs casting if you want a more strict straight transference of what is written in 3e books, such as for a high magic netheril campaign. most spell damage listings are just shunted over into normal D6 dice, the weakest magic missile uses 3e stated damage calculation but replaces d4 with d6, 20d8 damage becomes 20D damage, and so on.

8 ) Many feats (intact only in direct transference but likely treated as universally available via meta currency like fate points elstwise once you run another layer of filter/conversion such as if you do not have a player insisting strictest conversion) convert right over as written, others have to bend to D6 systems resolution method, for example two weapon fighting can be converted to delaying D6 multiple action penalties or adding weapon damage to the to-hit roll since D6 doesn't use such a byzantine formula as 3e for such.

All that having been said for illustrative purposes, I state now that I prefer at present 3e, but as you can see it is largely because of my ongoing personal projects which are greatly aided by 3e' attempt at standardization which is required for conversion to be possible. As stated things from other editions I have been converting to 3e first.

This doesn't mean in any way that I would flat prefer to run or play 3e over other editions; to me, each edition has a different "feel" and my mood will dictate which is my favorite to use at any given moment.


ETA
ATTEMPTED EDITS FOR CLARITY UPON RE-READ, IGNORING RULES LIKE GRAMMAR AND PRONUNCIATION AND PARKING RESTRICTIONS LIKE THE TRUE ANARCHIST I INNATELY AM.

jesus i ramble don't I? lol

B/X...what my brother and I taught ourselves to play with. Have started running it again since the lockdown started for the 2 or 3 players that can get together...Plus the Gazateers are awesome.

1e/2e...I actually like these a little better than B/X because I prefer the race/class split.  2e had cool campaign worlds...(Planescape and Birthright)

I've become very bored with 5e...will still play, but just not as fun.

Won't go back to 3/3.5/PF...I enjoy character 'building' and crunch but if I am going to do it I will be using a decent system like Hackmaster.

QuoteIf you have any further questions, lemme know.

Seems very cool overall. So overall amount of basic builds (individual variety aside) is quite astounding.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 30, 2021, 07:10:22 AM

QuoteIf you have any further questions, lemme know.

Seems very cool overall. So overall amount of basic builds (individual variety aside) is quite astounding.

Well, the idea is a "one-and-done" core book for players and one for GMs because I figure the best model to follow as an indy producer is how TSR c. 1974-1979 got D&D off the ground as an indy publisher (i.e. after the core, focus on solid adventures and GM support because character options are useless without a GM to run the game).

Trying some sort of "edition churn" or "ocean of splats" to release player options after the fact just isn't viable for a small publisher starting out.

That said, I had two other goals in my project that interact with this.

First, the project began as a pushback against 5e once it became clear that it was throwing 4E under the bus (the preferred edition of players in my circles) so one of goals was "if you can play it in 4E, there's a version of it here." Being able to combine class and background was the most efficient way to do that and, as a result of ensuring those options were available, a whole bunch of others ended up popping up as a result of other ways the combos could be joined.

The second goal was, having played 4E, I've experienced firsthand what it's like to wade through an ocean of splats looking for what are really pretty basic build options. You CAN do it without a builder program (as I've had to for a recent campaign because the cbLoader software died with my old laptop), but it's a pain that really does cause you to limit your options to things that are easily found.*

It was also damned expensive to collect it all (which was great in the short term for WotC, but edition fatigue is a thing).

So, the second goal... get ALL the player options into a single book with a low cost of entry (which is why I'm doing two soft bound 6x9 core books; Player's Guide and GM's Guide; instead of a single more expensive hardback with the contents of both). The idea is that a player will only ever need this one book to play without worrying you're missing some option hidden away in a later supplement.

So, I wanted to certain I packed as many possible options into that core book for them as you can see from the potential combos above.

Now, I don't expect every option to be used at every table. It's meant to cover an entire world (of which I focus on only a singe region about a hundred miles across in the default setting... the rest is unmapped by design) and some things just aren't found in some parts of it. GMs can also build their own worlds where, for example, there's only humans and no or limited magic (or no humans and everything magic).

But it's way easier to trim down than it is to build new. If you want a Basic D&D experience, it's easy enough to say the player options are Fighter (human military strong tactical striker fighters), Thief (human outlaw swift daring brigand fighters), Cleric (human religious militant benedictor theurges), Magic-User (human arcanist lore wizard interdictor), Elf (elf barbarian war wizard maledictor), Dwarf (dwarf artisan strong wary defender fighters) and Halfling (human [pygmy-sized] traveler wary masterminds) and disallow everything else (throw in the 0-level optional rule if you want a more zero-to-hero feel as well).

By contrast, starting with just Cleric, Fighter, Magic-User, Thief, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling and trying to have GMs and players figure out how to cover all the other concepts themselves would be a lot of work for them. Unless the mode of play covered by those specific options is exactly what they're looking for they're not going to be a potential customer.

So, options, and the GM and/or group itself establish what, if any, limits they want.

Also worth noting in terms of options though is that the default setting isn't medieval fantasy, it's Thundarr the Barbarian. So the level of background weirdness is expected to be a bit higher than a lot of D&D (how to tune it to anything from Post-Roman collapse Dark Ages to Star Wars-ish science fantasy is discussed in the GMs Guide).

* Conversely, this supplied a lot of insight into how Essentials would have worked without everyone pulling from the original more unbalanced options. Essentials-only is actually a pretty slick game that does play more like older D&D.