Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 13, 2023, 02:57:40 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on June 10, 2023, 01:45:46 AMIt's weird you think their MtG sales numbers are up - which is the only way you could tell this weird lie to yourself that the WOTC numbers are up but the D&D numbers are down. It's the opposite. They called that out in the stockholders meeting. D&D is way up. Each quarter has beaten the last.

Here's a chart from page 7 of the 2022 annual report showing massive growth in MTG over the last four years. I apologize for the size but I wanted to post it unmodified. Last year's annual report spends two whole pages talking about Magic the Gathering but the only mentions of D&D were in reference to the movie and to D&D's expansion into "digital gaming" via D&D Beyond.

I read them. We were discussing the Q1 2023 report, where they mentioned all this. Note MTG had already flattened out for all of 2022. That trend continued. It was D&D which ticked upwards.

Quote from: Mistwell on June 13, 2023, 05:17:02 PMI read them. We were discussing the Q1 2023 report, where they mentioned all this. Note MTG had already flattened out for all of 2022. That trend continued. It was D&D which ticked upwards.

The VERY FIRST bullet point in the Q1 2023 report was "MAGIC: THE GATHERING revenue increases 16% Year-Over-Year"

In the management remarks in this same earnings call we get this tidbit: "MAGIC: THE GATHERING was a standout performer, growing 16%, particularly
impressive given its 40% growth in Q4"

MTG has not, in any way, "flattenned out". It is growing faster than D&D even though it is already significantly larger than D&D. Plus, as I showed in my previous post, D&D posted a decrease in revenue in two of the previous four quarters.


BTW-For anyone playing along at home, I'm getting all this data from Hasbro's own investor page at:
https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/

Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

They have different draws. MTG is for addicts.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 13, 2023, 06:36:32 PM
The VERY FIRST bullet point in the Q1 2023 report was "MAGIC: THE GATHERING revenue increases 16% Year-Over-Year"

In the management remarks in this same earnings call we get this tidbit: "MAGIC: THE GATHERING was a standout performer, growing 16%, particularly
impressive given its 40% growth in Q4"

MTG has not, in any way, "flattenned out". It is growing faster than D&D even though it is already significantly larger than D&D. Plus, as I showed in my previous post, D&D posted a decrease in revenue in two of the previous four quarters.

BTW-For anyone playing along at home, I'm getting all this data from Hasbro's own investor page at:
https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/

Thanks, hedgehobbit. One can also search for similar presentations earlier. Here's Q4 2020 and 2021.

https://hasbro.gcs-web.com/events/event-details/hasbro-fourth-quarter-2020-earnings-conference-call

https://investor.hasbro.com/events/event-details/hasbro-fourth-quarter-2021-earnings-conference-call

It looks to me that D&D grew overall in 2020 and 2021 according to the text, though they don't report numbers for D&D separately.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 06:44:28 PM
Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

I realize that. MTG revenue is an order of magnitude higher than that of D&D. However, the reason it is being discussed is that Hasbro seldomly break out the sales numbers for D&D in their official filing but rather group it in with MTG to show Wizards of the Coast sales. What happens is that people see Hasbro reporting that "WotC revenue increased 16%" and then use that as evidence that D&D sales have increased 16% when that's not what Hasbro said and D&D sales can go down while WotC sales go up.

It's further obfuscated by the fact that Hasbro often switches between quarter to quarter growth and year over year growth making it almost impossible to track what is really going on.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on June 14, 2023, 10:02:49 AM

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on June 13, 2023, 06:44:28 PM
Comparing magic & D&D sales is comparing the attendance at a casino to the popularity of a TV show.

I realize that. MTG revenue is an order of magnitude higher than that of D&D. However, the reason it is being discussed is that Hasbro seldomly break out the sales numbers for D&D in their official filing but rather group it in with MTG to show Wizards of the Coast sales. What happens is that people see Hasbro reporting that "WotC revenue increased 16%" and then use that as evidence that D&D sales have increased 16% when that's not what Hasbro said and D&D sales can go down while WotC sales go up.

It's further obfuscated by the fact that Hasbro often switches between quarter to quarter growth and year over year growth making it almost impossible to track what is really going on.

Marketing is for shareholders as much as for customers... if you can't show success, baffling them with bullshit is standard operating procedure.

It's also worth noting that Cynthia Williams has promised to make D&D a Billion Dollar Product.
This would be like if someone promised to make kumquats the best selling vegetable in Montana.

And from what I can see, it was based on a badly-thought-out entirely theoretical plan that has already fallen apart.

The question of "how much money has D&D really made so far" or whether it's been having consistent growth or has in fact been trending down is almost irrelevant when you realize how many multiples of what it currently makes it would need to do to fulfill what Williams has insanely promised the shareholders.

Quote from: RPGPundit on June 15, 2023, 11:26:43 PM
It's also worth noting that Cynthia Williams has promised to make D&D a Billion Dollar Product.
This would be like if someone promised to make kumquats the best selling vegetable in Montana.

And from what I can see, it was based on a badly-thought-out entirely theoretical plan that has already fallen apart.

The question of "how much money has D&D really made so far" or whether it's been having consistent growth or has in fact been trending down is almost irrelevant when you realize how many multiples of what it currently makes it would need to do to fulfill what Williams has insanely promised the shareholders.

I'd love for Wizard's of the Coast to go out of business, and lose the copyright to D&D among other things... where it could be taken up by another company... and they may very well do that by pushing forward with the outer marketing things like Movies and TV Shows and seeing them fail.

The question here right now though... IS D&D the tabletop RPG failing right now? All signs seem to point to NO.

My theory is that 5th edition D&D's base is not made up of the roleplaying base that existed BEFORE it.... A lot of us jumped onto 5th edition when it released, because it was a lot of fun at the time.

But years later with Wizard's mismanagment, that original scene of players who existed before 5th edition, largely migrated away from it to other games.

In that time though, a combination of Matt Mercer (Whose huge in the Anime community so brought in all his fans from there) with Critical role, Stranger Things, Big Bang Theory, and other kitchy Normie dork adjacent stuff brought in an entire new wave of players... Which normally would be good... But WotC snatched them all up... and as I eluded to before... these folks are the Budwieser drinkers of RPG fans (Bud before the current controversy) they don't care about any other games.... they know D&D they like it's shiny production values... they like playing their Tumblr, Deviant art esq games, or are the 'allies' who want to be on the rightside of history, or just don't know any better... it's all they want..

These are the people who are keeping D&D number 1.... It's why Wotc is doing everything they can not to call the new edition "6th" edition.

But despite a price hike, despite controversies with the OGL and Pinkertons, this group doesn't care and continues to make D&D number 1...

I really do believe, when WotC launches their subscription service to play online, we'll see a clean break, completely between this audience and the rest of the tabletop community. WotC has built their walled garden, and their happy with it... and the people inside of it want nothing else.

It's going to take an even greater controversy to dethrone D&D and if the Subscription model DOES take off? Where you have these folks forking over 15 bucks a month, with microtransactions for new skins and cool dice effects? D&D very well might become a Billion Dollar brand.

 I think D&D stays at the top of RPGs for the rest of my life.  I do not think its good or for me, but MacDonalds sucks ass as food and it makes shitloads of cash and all sorts of mouth breathers eat it.  I can not say MacDonalds is not a big success despite me not liking it.   So I hope D&D does as well as it can.  I do think they might screw up and pull a 4th edition move...but I have doubts as to there being a player big enough to do what Pathfinder pulled off for a short bit again.    If more women are playing than ever before great.  Who ever should play however they want.  If they like being preached to...good for them.   

   I do think we worry a bit too much (those of us who just do not care for D&D or WOTC) about D&D at times.  There are enough ways to get good projects off the ground these days that with the internet to connect people, there is a niche for everyone.  Find your niche IMO and have fun. 

Quote from: oggsmash on June 16, 2023, 12:22:34 PM
I think D&D stays at the top of RPGs for the rest of my life.  I do not think its good or for me, but MacDonalds sucks ass as food and it makes shitloads of cash and all sorts of mouth breathers eat it.  I can not say MacDonalds is not a big success despite me not liking it.   So I hope D&D does as well as it can.  I do think they might screw up and pull a 4th edition move...but I have doubts as to there being a player big enough to do what Pathfinder pulled off for a short bit again.    If more women are playing than ever before great.  Who ever should play however they want.  If they like being preached to...good for them.   

   I do think we worry a bit too much (those of us who just do not care for D&D or WOTC) about D&D at times.  There are enough ways to get good projects off the ground these days that with the internet to connect people, there is a niche for everyone.  Find your niche IMO and have fun. 

As someone who's never played D&D (past a handful of sessions of 4e), I appreciate it for pulling people who otherwise wouldn't be into the hobby.

I read today about a group of 50-something guys who decided to try something other than their usual 5e, and ran a D&D adventure module using BoL Mythic. Their creativity and roleplaying would blossom in the new rules-lite system, and they ended up adopting it as their primary game. Likewise, it's my hope that a sizeable fraction of people who play D&D eventually move on to other systems depending on their tastes.