Quote from: jeff37923;645591" As far as 4E being a board game, well, it is tough to argue against that when faced with this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this. "

So you linking a couple boardgames based on D&D and a fucking skirmish game that uses D&D miniatures somehows turn 4e into a boardgame?

Shit I can do this to.
TSR boardgames based on D&D
Dungeon!(1975)
Dungeons & Dragons Computer Labyrinth Game (1980)
Quest for the Dungeonmaster(1984) Based on the cartoon that is based on the game.
and on and on.

What's you point?

Quote from: Benoist;645606Are Milton Bradley's HeroQuest and Advanced HeroQuest board games, or role playing games?

More importantly is this the dumbest persistent conversation we have, or the stupidest?

Quote from: Sommerjon;645642So you linking a couple boardgames based on D&D and a fucking skirmish game that uses D&D miniatures somehows turn 4e into a boardgame?

What's you point?

4E has more in common with tactical skirmish games than it does to role-playing games. If the manufacturer of 4E can so easily port it into becomming a boardgame that the boardgames become the flagship product while they end production of the 4E RPG, then that speaks volumes. If you don't like it, take it up with WotC/Hasbro.

Quote from: jeff37923;6456464E has more in common with tactical skirmish games than it does to role-playing games. If the manufacturer of 4E can so easily port it into becomming a boardgame that the boardgames become the flagship product while they end production of the 4E RPG, then that speaks volumes. If you don't like it, take it up with WotC/Hasbro.

So were your also this prune-faced about all of the other media TSR used to promote their game?  You know all of those tactical skirmish rules they released, the board games they released, the computer games they released, the use of inches for the game, the miniatures they released.  Are you so eageer to throw all of D&D under the bus over your irrational hatred of 4e?  Did you take it up with TSR about all of these as well?

Ya I didn't think so.

Quote from: Sommerjon;645664So were your also this prune-faced about all of the other media TSR used to promote their game?  You know all of those tactical skirmish rules they released, the board games they released, the computer games they released, the use of inches for the game, the miniatures they released.  Are you so eageer to throw all of D&D under the bus over your irrational hatred of 4e?  Did you take it up with TSR about all of these as well?

Ya I didn't think so.

You would be mistaken also.

After all, my go-to game is Traveller.

Not all of D&D needs to be thrown under the bus, just 4E.
Oh, and WotC/Hasbro has already done that.

If you go to game is traveller why do you even care what WotC does?

I am pointing out to you that what you are bitching about is the exact same thing that TSR did. Why the hell is it fine for TSR to have done it, but sooooo fucking wrong for WotC to do the exact same thing?

Quote from: Sommerjon;645670If you go to game is traveller why do you even care what WotC does?

Because I am ever thankful for the d20 SRD and OGL which spawned its Killer Baby, Pathfinder/3.x.

Quote from: Sommerjon;645670I am pointing out to you that what you are bitching about is the exact same thing that TSR did. Why the hell is it fine for TSR to have done it, but sooooo fucking wrong for WotC to do the exact same thing?

Actually, back then when TSR did it, they did not kill off their RPG and use its bones for a profit margin. They kept the RPG alive. Significant difference there when comparing TSR to WotC/Hasbro.

Come to think of it, back then TSR may have been led by a total bitch who loathed gamers - but she wasn't stupid enough to alienate most of her customer base like 4E has.

As a 2e fan, especially of the new settings, I actually concede Lorraine Williams might have been better in total D&D legacy than WotC/Hasbro so far. Even her efforts to kill everything TSR off, she left better game-able/marketable product: more iconic and diverse art, worlds, IPs, etc. That's lamentable.

Anyway, I still feel 4e is an RPG -- a Tactics RPG, but still RPG nonetheless. However, if I wear my jaded glasses I can see how the hyperbolic charge that it is 'just a board game' may seem too damn embarrassingly close. At that point it feels like splitting hairs than an obvious exaggeration, and that is the shame; none can come from such a painful discussion any better -- and that is WotC's D&D 4e design team's fault.

Quote from: Opaopajr;645680-- and that is WotC's D&D 4e design team's fault.

I believe their goal for the design of the game was
1)players needing an online subscription product so to play it
2)cater to the investment sensibilities of the established D&D fan base so to sell it to it and kill the OGL while at it. Which means to be able to market it to hardcore fans as a better game than the previous iteration.

They failed but I do not believe that their goals were achievable in tandem.

I'd agree to that. They wanted a college textbook model with planned obsolescence and rentals. And they wanted to kill all 3rd parties dead (cuz Hasbro are assholes that way); either completely monopolize the puny RPG market or destroy it utterly by having 'the big boy' go on strike/Galt.

They never seem to have suspected rebellion...

Wow. :jaw-dropping:

When you find yourself compared to Lorraine Williams, and are called actually "worse" as far as D&D's legacy is concerned, you know something's gone horribly wrong.

Lets put things in perspective MBs Heroquest game is an RPG defintely.

You talk in character, you play a role you can play the same character in different ways definitely an RPG.

Second Wizards get so much stick. Lets not mince words they saved D&D. D&D was dead 2e had become skills and powers and doom. the game was goign nowhere the company were close to bankrupcy. Peter Adkinson loves games, loved RPGs. He had literally stumbled on the golden goose with Magic and because of that found himself in the position to save a thing he loved.
Wizards bought TSR and D&D. Then they got to work on 3e and because they loved D&D they created the OGL.
Its obvious from here that these guys werejust like most of us on here. They basically published their own heartbreaker. Something most of us would do if we just won the lottery that was MtG.
3e created a silver age. The number of gamers boomed and the number of games boomed. I never liked 3e and wasn't interested in any of the OGL spin off stuff but it woudl daft to deny that it envigourated the market hugely and caused a second blush in the hobby.
Because of Magic and more so the Pokemon card game Hasbro were interested. They offered $325 million for the company and so Peter Adkinson eventually sold and retired so he could play games and chillax all day.  Someone offered $300 million for a company you started in your basement would you take it ....
Why give Wizards so much shit? You can see that the OGL was a corporate gaff but one made I think deliberately to ensure that D&D woudl carry on for ever and be owned by the players. 4e might have tried to close that stable long after the horse had bolted, by all means bitch that Hasbro acted like a multinational corporation trying to potect it's IP but please give Wizards their due they were far better custodians of D&D than TSR were even if their version stank next to 2e

Quote from: Benoist;645460There is some irony to that whole thing, like how a few years back it was all about "4e feels like old school, man, you can make up what you want, if you don't like this or that you can just change it and stuff, page 32 (?) of the DMG man!" and suddenly it's all "ZOMG! Starting at level 4, WTF? Dead levels and stuff and I shouldn't have to do this and you guys are grogTARDS!"

4E does not feel old school to me at all. Did I miss something?

Quote from: Bill;6457514E does not feel old school to me at all. Did I miss something?

Apparently their entire initial marketing campaign?

Quote from: GnomeWorks;645755Apparently their entire initial marketing campaign?

This. The one after the "Ze Game Remains Ze Same... but BETTER!!ONE!", to be precise.