Quote from: Imperator;646423:hatsoff:

That is what I meant to say. And that is what I consider the weakest point of an open playtesting process.

You need to have a strong enough personality to remember that you won't satisfy everyone. I on the other hand believe it to be more beneficial, than writing from an ivory tower - care to elaborate? I am genuinely interested what you have to say on the matter. Do you believe that trying to listen to all the voices as you work, too early, mudden one's own vision?

I admit when you stage a test, so to speak - films get test screenings too, and stuff gets edited all the time. Clerks were famously supposed to end with Dante dying from a hand of a random burglar, but that was heavily criticised by the test audience, but it was a finished product by the time as well.

Quote from: Haffrung;646432I suppose I don't understand the anxiety about the market making products for people who like different things than I do. It doesn't mean someone is going to take away the things I do like.

Well, that's exactly what happened.

They took away 2e and replaced it with a gridded wargame 3.x/4e.

Quote from: neutromancer;645203Hi, new poster here.

I didn't play a lot of D&D in the 80s (or most RPGs in general), but saying that D&D was about combat more than anything else... I mean, that's not the way I remember.

Using the same logic, my conclusion is that D&D was about mapping. It was about filling a square grid paper with the corridors, until you had a complete copy of whatever was in the DM's square grid paper.

Each room could have a monster, a trap, an unguarded treasure, nothing, flavor text, I don't know. But I wouldn't say it was about combat, because you had about equal chance of finding either of these. And from what I remember, monster treasure tables had a separate value for what they were usually carrying, and what they had stashed away (most of their loot was in their lair, so yeah if you killed them there you'd probably get nice shiny stuff and had to fight for it, but you might not even find the monster at all if he's just walking clockwise down the corridors same as you ).

So, in conclusion, D&D was about completing the map. What you found in each "40' x 30' room, with a long table" blah blah was just a situational hazard.

And now, those forum hippies with their "well you'll probably remember the layout of the dungeon so you can find the exit" can git outta my lawn.

(EDIT: for the record, not having to draw a map in 10' grid paper most of the time is an improvement to me)

Welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: Haffrung;646432I suppose I don't understand the anxiety about the market making products for people who like different things than I do. It doesn't mean someone is going to take away the things I do like.

In some cases that's exactly what they want.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;646605In some cases that's exactly what they want.

RPGPundit

Hasbro: Taking Away The Things You Like (TM)

Its ok to like rpgs, wargames, and boardgames at the same time.

Quote from: Bill;646662Its ok to like rpgs, wargames, and boardgames at the same time.

Indeed.

And maybe some RPG hobbyists should stop and consider why the popularity of boardgames is increasing by leaps and bounds, while RPGs shuffle into decline.

But no, the RPG hobby has nothing to learn from a hobby where geeks who are into fantasy, science fiction, and history gather around tables face-to-face to play games and socialize. Boardgames and RPGs are utterly different hobbies, and RPGs are doing just fine on their own, thank you very much.

Quote from: Haffrung;646673Indeed.

And maybe some RPG hobbyists should stop and consider why the popularity of boardgames is increasing by leaps and bounds, while RPGs shuffle into decline.

But no, the RPG hobby has nothing to learn from a hobby where geeks who are into fantasy, science fiction, and history gather around tables face-to-face to play games and socialize. Boardgames and RPGs are utterly different hobbies, and RPGs are doing just fine on their own, thank you very much.

Easy. A boardgame is much faster to learn and play and costs less money in comparison say to 4e.

Personally, I like Blood Bowl and Wotc 4e inspired boardgames but I consider 4e a boring as hell roleplaying-game-wannabe using board game rules. Perhaps it is just the implementation that sucks, as other people have claimed, but I rather believe it is the original idea to base the structure of D&D, a generic (in regards to play style) roleplaying game, on grid interactions.

Quote from: 1989;646579Well, that's exactly what happened.

They took away 2e and replaced it with a gridded wargame 3.x/4e.

No, they did not, you fucking child.  Nobody took your books away.  Nobody took your players away.   Nobody took your campaign away.  In fact, third party publishers still publish adventures for 2e, and WOTC is re-releasing the hardback books as well, and both are thanks to WOTC.

The game you like was made by a company that doesn't even exist.  WOTC didn't EVER publish the game you like - it was from a company that existed and ceased to exist long ago.  In fact, had WOTC not bought the shell of the remains of that company, there never would have been an OGL, and you wouldn't have all this new shit and re-published books to play with for 2e.  So SHUT THE FUCK UP already with your constant whining. Shit, I hear more emo bullshit from you than from your typical goth Vampire larper.  Just play the game you like, let others play the games they like, and stop pouting that the game you like MUST BE THE NUMBER ONE CURRENTLY PUBLISHED GAME or else some RPG company must pay with your constant impotent internet wraith, you spoiled little shit.

Now now, 4E is not a gridded wargame. It is a fantasy tactical skirmish boardgame with some role-playing tacked on as an afterthought.

EDIT: Just like D&D Next is a marketting campaign trying to return former D&D fans to the WotC fold with a playtest tacked on.

Quote from: Mistwell;646774No, they did not, you fucking child.  Nobody took your books away.  Nobody took your players away.   Nobody took your campaign away.  In fact, third party publishers still publish adventures for 2e, and WOTC is re-releasing the hardback books as well, and both are thanks to WOTC.

The game you like was made by a company that doesn't even exist.  WOTC didn't EVER publish the game you like - it was from a company that existed and ceased to exist long ago.  In fact, had WOTC not bought the shell of the remains of that company, there never would have been an OGL, and you wouldn't have all this new shit and re-published books to play with for 2e.  So SHUT THE FUCK UP already with your constant whining. Shit, I hear more emo bullshit from you than from your typical goth Vampire larper.  Just play the game you like, let others play the games they like, and stop pouting that the game you like MUST BE THE NUMBER ONE CURRENTLY PUBLISHED GAME or else some RPG company must pay with your constant impotent internet wraith, you spoiled little shit.

Lovely, enthusiastic post. +1 for lolz.

Really though, you are playing semantics. 2e was replaced with a gridded wargame. Anyone can see that.

Quote from: RPGPundit;646593Welcome to theRPGsite!

Thanks!

Quote from: 1989;646814Lovely, enthusiastic post. +1 for lolz.

Really though, you are playing semantics. 2e was replaced with a gridded wargame. Anyone can see that.

Wierd the first 4 years I played D&D back in the early to mid 80s we played on a terrain table utilizing all them there measurements that the game came with.

Quote from: 1989;646814Lovely, enthusiastic post. +1 for lolz.

Really though, you are playing semantics. 2e was replaced with a gridded wargame. Anyone can see that.

Did they break into your house and steal your books and replace them with 3e books? Did they force your players to play 3e instead of 2e?

No, then stop fucking saying they replaced your game.  They didn't replace it, any more than new editions of monopoly with star wars characters replaced your 1970s copy of monopoly.  

You cannot any longer even say your books are out of print - they're going back into print.  And you can't say your game isn't supported - it has lots of 3rd party support.  There's just nothing logical behind your position.

So what exactly is your complaint, that other people are playing RPGs other than your preferred RPG? That your preferred RPG is not the most popular RPG?

Quote from: Mistwell;646943Did they break into your house and steal your books and replace them with 3e books? Did they force your players to play 3e instead of 2e?

No, then stop fucking saying they replaced your game.  They didn't replace it, any more than new editions of monopoly with star wars characters replaced your 1970s copy of monopoly.  

You cannot any longer even say your books are out of print - they're going back into print.  And you can't say your game isn't supported - it has lots of 3rd party support.  There's just nothing logical behind your position.

So what exactly is your complaint, that other people are playing RPGs other than your preferred RPG? That your preferred RPG is not the most popular RPG?

The current official edition is a gridded wargame. Was not before. How's that?