Quote from: Halloween Jack;533582Pathfinder has often developed their game by following 4e's lead, but masking 4e ideas under a haze of awful writing so that the game still "feels" like D&D3. Presumably D&D Next will give them a new box of toys to break and then duct-tape back together.

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Do you have some specific examples?

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533582Pathfinder has often developed their game by following 4e's lead, but masking 4e ideas under a haze of awful writing so that the game still "feels" like D&D3.

Got anything you can show as support for this looney claim?


EDIT: Damnit, Brendan! Beat me by a minute!

Quote from: 1989;533614Hell yeah!! Burn the minis!

I love the smell of burning plastic in the morning. Smells like . . . victory!

Burning metal.

Quote from: ggroy;533654Burning metal.

More like "melting" metal.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;533647Do you have some specific examples?

Quote from: PathfinderGreater Vital Strike (Combat)

You can make a single attack that deals incredible damage.

Prerequisites: Improved Vital Strike, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +16.

Benefit: When you use the attack action, you can make one attack at your highest base attack bonus that deals additional damage. Roll the weapon's damage dice for the attack four times and add the results together before adding bonuses from Strength, weapon abilities (such as flaming), precision based damage, and other damage bonuses. These extra weapon damage dice are not multiplied on a critical hit, but are added to the total.

Quote from: Pathfinder, translated into 4eseAt-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 4[W] + Strength modifier damage.

And also:

QuoteAntagonize

Whether with biting remarks or hurtful words, you are adept at making creatures angry with you.

Benefit: You can make Diplomacy and Intimidate checks to make creatures respond to you with hostility. No matter which skill you use, antagonizing a creature takes a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and has a DC equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. You cannot make this check against a creature that does not understand you or has an Intelligence score of 3 or lower. Before you make these checks, you may make a Sense Motive check (DC 20) as a swift action to gain an insight bonus on these Diplomacy or Intimidate checks equal to your Charisma bonus until the end of your next turn. The benefits you gain for this check depend on the skill you use. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Diplomacy: You fluster your enemy. For the next minute, the target takes a –2 penalty on all attacks rolls made against creatures other than you and has a 10% spell failure chance on all spells that do not target you or that have you within their area of effect.

Intimidate: The creature flies into a rage. On its next turn, the target must attempt to make a melee attack against you, make a ranged attack
against you, target you with a spell, or include you in the area of a spell. The effect ends if the creature is prevented from attacking you or attempting to do so would harm it (for example, if you are on the other side of a chasm or a wall of fire). If it cannot attack you on its turn, you may make the check again as an immediate action to extend the effect for 1 round (but cannot extend it thereafter). The effect ends as soon as the creature attacks you. Once you have targeted a creature with this ability, you cannot target it again for 1 day.

Hell of a lot of words to basically give fighters limited-use powers without cries of "Nooo! My associated verisimmmersionilitude!"

Then there's the gunslinger, a martial class whose offense is based on inflicting status effects with trick shots. It's sort of like a 4e class, in the same way that a child repeatedly vomiting while giving a book report is sort of like an episode of Prairie Home Companion.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533672And also:



Hell of a lot of words to basically give fighters limited-use powers without cries of "Nooo! My associated verisimmmersionilitude!"

Then there's the gunslinger, a martial class whose offense is based on inflicting status effects with trick shots. It's sort of like a 4e class, in the same way that a child repeatedly vomiting while giving a book report is sort of like an episode of Prairie Home Companion.

I will have to take your word for it as I dont play or care for pathfinder. But the first example is not the kind of power people complained about with 4e. The verisimilitude power arises with encounter and daily martials.

I am not a huge fan of the second power, but that also isn't an encounter or daily and appears to avoid the mistake 4e taunt makes.

So not really seeing your argument here.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;533673I will have to take your word for it as I dont play or care for pathfinder. But the first example is not the kind of power people complained about with 4e.

Not really relevant. The argument is that as Pathfinder develops, they've done a lot of things that 4e also does, only they state them in much more cumbersome language.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533675Not really relevant. The argument is that as Pathfinder develops, they've done a lot of things that 4e also does, only they state them in much more cumbersome language.

Except that you have yet to provide any proof.

The Greater Vital Strike feat is not proof because your "conversion" to 4E does not include the need for prerequisites before that one can be used. It is not even an actual trick in 4E.

The feat Antagonize just shows the feat, you do not even give the example of what 4E trick it is supposed to be a copy of.

C'mon, try harder. This is just too easy to disprove.

I see a big difference between x per day powers and encounter powers. The former allows the player to use them however they will, in combat or out of combat in any combination. Where encounter powers get to be used once in a given encounter and most have no use in out of combat scenerios.

That's not even getting into the severe disconnect that the concept of martial dailies cause.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533675Not really relevant. The argument is that as Pathfinder develops, they've done a lot of things that 4e also does, only they state them in much more cumbersome language.

Wonder if they're doing this, to avoid infringing on WotC's copyrights, trademarks, etc ...  

:rolleyes:

What would be amusing is if there's enough "open gaming content" in the Pathfinder SRD documents which imitates 4E D&D well enough, that it is easy to write a 4E clone from reverse engineering already existing "open gaming content" stuff.

:pundit:

Quote from: ggroy;533684What would be amusing is if there's enough "open gaming content" in the Pathfinder SRD documents which imitates 4E D&D well enough, that it is easy to write a 4E clone from reverse engineering already existing "open gaming content" stuff.

:pundit:

I don't see why a 4E clone couldn't be written using the d20 SRD and OGL. It is all there except for the crappy advertising/PR campaign.

Quote from: jeff37923;533679Except that you have yet to provide any proof.

The Greater Vital Strike feat is not proof because your "conversion" to 4E does not include the need for prerequisites before that one can be used. It is not even an actual trick in 4E.

The feat Antagonize just shows the feat, you do not even give the example of what 4E trick it is supposed to be a copy of.

C'mon, try harder. This is just too easy to disprove.

No! Bad Jeff! Come back here with those goalposts! I'm not positing that Pathfinder devs are secretly trying to duplicate 4e individual powers exactly. Just pointing out that Pathfinder is doing plenty of things that 4e did first, only their design is less unified and thus the writing is a mess. Like how in 4e different spells and prayers are written up in accordance to one set of mechanics, whereas in previous editions each spell has its own detailed explanation (and Turn Undead is basically a subsystem unto itself with its own table).

I was talking about translating an obtusely-written Pathfinder ability into 4e terms, not the reverse. Remember? If it helps, though:

Greater Vital Strikin'
Prerequisites: 11th level, fighter, Improved Vital Strike.
Benefit: You gain the Greater Vital Strike power.

(WotC doesn't break feats down into individual levels. Nor do they need power-granting feats in order to fix damage scaling and the fact that iterative attacks are a mess; granted, they do have feat taxes to fix attack and defense bonus scaling.)

Quote from: Marleycat;533680I see a big difference between x per day powers and encounter powers. The former allows the player to use them however they will, in combat or out of combat in any combination. Where encounter powers get to be used once in a given encounter and most have no use in out of combat scenerios.

You lost me. As opposed to all the out-of-combat uses for Stunning Fist?

Cool story bro

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533727No! Bad Jeff! Come back here with those goalposts!

Not moving goalposts. I am saying that you are full of shit.

Quote from: Halloween Jack;533727I'm not positing that Pathfinder devs are secretly trying to duplicate 4e individual powers exactly. Just pointing out that Pathfinder is doing plenty of things that 4e did first, only their design is less unified and thus the writing is a mess.

But you so far have not been able to prove it at all. So keep trying! In fact, try harder. Show me something specific that was in 4E, that has an obvious corolarry to what is done in Pathfinder. In fact, site your source as well.