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[D&D Next] Fighter assessment after 5 sessions

Started by Sacrosanct, June 06, 2013, 11:09:27 AM

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The Ent

#15
June 06, 2013, 01:19:56 PM
Quote from: Mistwell;660606Oh no you didn't! :eek:

:D

I'm a huge big 2e fan - 2e is "my" D&D.
However when you use 2e with all the C&T stuff (yes I know, "2.5e") combats get fiddly (ditto with the Fighter's HB stuff). But that's all OT really.

I like what I hear about 5e fighters. :)

1989

#16
June 06, 2013, 01:31:47 PM
Quote from: Piestrio;660604I tend to agree. That looks like more moving parts than I generally like.

It seems "built".

Question for Sacrosanct: how many of those feat/ability/powers/etc... were discrete choices and how many we're just class abilities?

Not to mention, WotC told us, that with 5e, they were trying to do away with this metagamey terminology.

Yeah, you can just imagine the Fighter saying to the Cleric, "Hey, check out this "Deadly Strike." Hey, watch this "Nimble Defense"".

Feats basically kill immersion by constantly bringing you back to game terminology. The same could be said for HP, and many other things, but, the feats just . . . suck.

Sorry. And it's like the others said. Build mentality.

Sacrosanct

#17
June 06, 2013, 01:38:17 PM
Quote from: 1989;660619Not to mention, WotC told us, that with 5e, they were trying to do away with this metagamey terminology.

Yeah, you can just imagine the Fighter saying to the Cleric, "Hey, check out this "Deadly Strike." Hey, watch this "Nimble Defense"".

Feats basically kill immersion by constantly bringing you back to game terminology. The same could be said for HP, and many other things, but, the feats just . . . suck.

Sorry. And it's like the others said. Build mentality.

How is saying, "I'm going to use deadly strike." any different than "I'm going to backstab."?  Or "I'm going to cast spell x?"  or "I'm going to use my bardic inspire ability?"  or "I'm going to Turn Undead"?

Seriously man, the terminology has been there from day 1, and we all use it, in every edition.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Sommerjon

#18
June 06, 2013, 01:42:36 PM
Quote from: 1989;660619Not to mention, WotC told us, that with 5e, they were trying to do away with this metagamey terminology.

Yeah, you can just imagine the Fighter saying to the Cleric, "Hey, check out this "Deadly Strike." Hey, watch this "Nimble Defense"".

Feats basically kill immersion by constantly bringing you back to game terminology. The same could be said for HP, and many other things, but, the feats just . . . suck.

Sorry. And it's like the others said. Build mentality.
If it's baked into the class; all is well, but if you get to choose it's a 'build'?
Quote from: One Horse TownFrankly, who gives a fuck. :idunno:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;789217Being offered only a single loot poor option for adventure is a railroad

1989

#19
June 06, 2013, 01:50:24 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;660621How is saying, "I'm going to use deadly strike." any different than "I'm going to backstab."?  Or "I'm going to cast spell x?"  or "I'm going to use my bardic inspire ability?"  or "I'm going to Turn Undead"?

Seriously man, the terminology has been there from day 1, and we all use it, in every edition.

Because "I'm going to cast a spell or I'm going to try to stab him in the back" is real-world terminology.

Mistwell

#20
June 06, 2013, 02:27:30 PM Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 02:33:07 PM by Mistwell
Quote from: 1989;660627Because "I'm going to cast a spell or I'm going to try to stab him in the back" is real-world terminology.

"I am going to use my nimbleness to try and dodge", or "I am going to try and make a deadly strike", is different in your mind that "I am going to try and stab him in the back" or "I am going to try to turn the undead"?

Please 1989.  We all now what you really mean.  You mean, "2e rockz, everything else suxors! 2e, Fuck yah! Woo!"

Exploderwizard

#21
June 06, 2013, 02:40:30 PM
Quote from: Mistwell;660632"I am going to use my nimbleness to try and dodge", or "I am going to try and make a deadly strike", is different in your mind that "I am going to stab him in the back" or "I am going to turn undead"?

Please 1989.  We all now what you really mean.  You mean, "2e rockz, everything else suxors! 2e Fuck yah! Woo!"


I'm not a huge 2E fan but the question I would have to ask is: what are you attempting to do on an attack that is NOT a deadly strike?

Is it an attempt to tickle? Do you say " I make a halfhearted strike"?

When not using nimble dodge do you declare that you're standing there and taking it like a man?

The assumption I have for melee combat is that the character is trying his/her very best at all times except when a pulled punch is explicitly stated.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

One Horse Town

#22
June 06, 2013, 02:45:46 PM
Well, if there are going to be buffs, they have to call them something.

The Ent

#23
June 06, 2013, 02:55:16 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;660636Well, if there are going to be buffs, they have to call them something.

Yes, this.

As long as they don't go overboard with silly names for stuff like they did in 4e and there isn't too much of it...yeah, I mean they could've called it "deadlier" strike I suppose but that's just silly...

Sacrosanct

#24
June 06, 2013, 02:55:48 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;660636Well, if there are going to be buffs, they have to call them something.

Pretty much.


And no, Exploderwizard, not every attack is an uber deadly attack, and not every attempt to move out of the way is a nimble dodge.  Melee combat is oportunistic, where you take your shots when they come.  Sometimes it may just be a flesh wound.

And I wasn't aware "turn undead" was a real world term.  As much as I hate to agree with Mistwell so soon after disagreeing with him (I like to have at least a week between doing so ;) ), he's right on this.  1989, that reasoning is some pretty weak sauce.

To be honest, it comes off as very much like the usual suspects at TBP, looking for any reason to hate 5e, even if it has to be made up.
D&D is not an "everyone gets a ribbon" game.  If you\'re stupid, your PC will die.  If you\'re an asshole, your PC will die (probably from the other PCs).  If you\'re unlucky, your PC may die.  Point?  PC\'s die.  Get over it and roll up a new one.

Haffrung

#25
June 06, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
Quote from: 1989;660619Not to mention, WotC told us, that with 5e, they were trying to do away with this metagamey terminology.

Yeah, you can just imagine the Fighter saying to the Cleric, "Hey, check out this "Deadly Strike." Hey, watch this "Nimble Defense"".

Feats basically kill immersion by constantly bringing you back to game terminology. The same could be said for HP, and many other things, but, the feats just . . . suck.


Do you feel the same way about Paladin, Monk, and Druid class abilities from AD&D?

I'm playing Next with a group of old-school players who either never played 3E D&D, or played and grew to dislike it. They all love Next.
 

Exploderwizard

#26
June 06, 2013, 03:03:40 PM
Quote from: One Horse Town;660636Well, if there are going to be buffs, they have to call them something.

I know.

Its just that in a system with variable weapon damage vs relative hit point totals, what is actually a deadly strike will be self evident.

Special moves are fine but thier descriptions should match what is happening in an apparent non-black box fashion.

For example: shield bash, disarm, trip, and entangle. These are all observable special moves and a lot more interesting than a bland attack that somehow deals MOAR DAMAGE than any other attempt to hit yet provides no clue as to why that might be.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

1989

#27
June 06, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;660635I'm not a huge 2E fan but the question I would have to ask is: what are you attempting to do on an attack that is NOT a deadly strike?

Is it an attempt to tickle? Do you say " I make a halfhearted strike"?

When not using nimble dodge do you declare that you're standing there and taking it like a man?

The assumption I have for melee combat is that the character is trying his/her very best at all times except when a pulled punch is explicitly stated.

K, had to laugh there. lol

One Horse Town

#28
June 06, 2013, 03:11:52 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;660642For example: shield bash, disarm, trip, and entangle. These are all observable special moves and a lot more interesting than a bland attack that somehow deals MOAR DAMAGE than any other attempt to hit yet provides no clue as to why that might be.

WFRP wins on this, as ever. Strike Mighty Blow.

1989

#29
June 06, 2013, 03:13:58 PM
Quote from: Sacrosanct;660640Pretty much.


And no, Exploderwizard, not every attack is an uber deadly attack, and not every attempt to move out of the way is a nimble dodge.  Melee combat is oportunistic, where you take your shots when they come.  Sometimes it may just be a flesh wound.

And I wasn't aware "turn undead" was a real world term.  As much as I hate to agree with Mistwell so soon after disagreeing with him (I like to have at least a week between doing so ;) ), he's right on this.  1989, that reasoning is some pretty weak sauce.

To be honest, it comes off as very much like the usual suspects at TBP, looking for any reason to hate 5e, even if it has to be made up.

Well, eh, I did say that it wasn't totally airtight. We have hp and such, but the feats and all the names . . . man, it just leaves me cold . . . esp. after WotC saying they were going to try to downplay this sort of thing. Now, they're right back at it.

Everyone has his line that can be crossed. Feats like this cross the line for me.

If they would have described WHY it was such a deadly strike and related it back to something in the real world, then, yeah.
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