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Author Topic: D&D Is Not For "Making Story": The History  (Read 37764 times)

Delete_me

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D&D Is Not For "Making Story": The History
« Reply #630 on: April 10, 2019, 10:49:01 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1082905
There is no 'supercategory', except maybe if you mean something like "game genres that in some way derived from Little Wars".
I mean it in the sense of both Chess and D&D are Games. Chess is a competitive board game. D&D is a tabletop RPG. They're in different categories, but they're both, undeniably, in the Set of Games.

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An RPG is different from a storygame, in brief, in that an RPG creates a virtual worlds and players try to immerse themselves in playing characters in that virtual living world; while a story game is meant to tell a story and players take the roles of co-authors trying to craft a story out of a setting and characters that are non-living literary backdrops for the story to happen in and with.

What's an example of a Storygame then? Because I would point to something like Anima Prime as being very heavily storygame driven (players work together to have Group Seeds, to help set the setting, cannot die without their approval as part of driving the plot forward), yet, in actual play, each player assumes the role of a single character. They are to get immersed in just that character.

Similarly, Dogs in the Vineyard seems to have that same sort of flavor. It's all about creating a story (that usually ends with everyone killing each other for being heretics), but during play it's driven entirely by immersing yourself in the character.

A counter example: Exalted. It's undeniably a tabletop RPG, but Stunting explicitly allows a player to break the rules. While in the end it's still subject to Storyteller control, it's still a present factor. Much more so with, say, Fair Folk, where you are assuming the role of one fey whose very job is to create a good story and is actively rewarded or hindered for doing or failing to do that.

D&D, at least as far back as 3E, not sure about further, has had framework and rules for how to do 'shared DMing'. 4E was probably the first one that made it very explicit and 5E still retains that DNA in the DMG.

Honestly, I cannot think of a single game that would fit the description of "characters . . . are non-living literary backdrops" except for, maybe, that spy one brought up earlier in this thread. But even that I'm not willing to definitively state this is a factor in it because I haven't read it thoroughly. Someone better equipped than I can answer that.

So do you have an example of characters as non-living literary backdrops? What games come to mind for you on that? Because under estar's description and categorization I was able to get a pretty good understanding of where he was coming from and what might be considered a wargame v. tabletop game v. storygame to him. I could see fuzzy limits, but limits nonetheless. Here, I still don't see limits, and so the term is empty to me at the moment. It's waiting to be filled with meaning.

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If RPGs create anything, it's History.
Not sure what you mean by this. What are you saying is the distinction between history and literature here?

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Storygames create a kind of literature. Mostly badly, in my opinion, but some storygamers seem to like that... though I think mostly they like the sense of smugness they get being fans of those games.
I have no basis for comparison on this one, so I can neither agree nor disagree. I have no reason to doubt your experiences on the matter though so... no contradiction from me!

Alexander Kalinowski

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D&D Is Not For "Making Story": The History
« Reply #631 on: April 11, 2019, 03:29:05 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;1082905
There is no 'supercategory', except maybe if you mean something like "game genres that in some way derived from Little Wars".

Nonsense. Fiasco and D&D certainly have enough properties in common (and which set them apart from other games) to recognize them as belonging to one "supercategory" of games. "Played in the collective imagination", "playing as an individual" and "characterization" come to mind.
Author of the Knights of the Black Lily RPG, a game of sexy black fantasy.
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Alexander Kalinowski

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« Reply #632 on: April 11, 2019, 04:01:25 AM »
Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1082939
Not sure what you mean by this. What are you saying is the distinction between history and literature here?
History is emergent instead of crafted (unless you believe in the divine and lack of free will, that is). What the Pundit does neglect to observe is that people are generally not so much interested in history but rather in dramatized fiction. I don't want to get beat from 64 HPs down to 25, without consequence, only to get magically healed after combat to be fit enough for the next encounter. So, yes, that is an emergent situation but it's not the type of situation I want in my games.

There's more to it but the essential point is that there can be a conflict between emergent gameplay and proper dramatization. I believe that handling that conflict is what the next generation of RPGs is about and Mr. Kalinowski is presently quite busy in contributing his share in resolving that.
Author of the Knights of the Black Lily RPG, a game of sexy black fantasy.
Setting: Ilethra, a fantasy continent ruled over by exclusively spiteful and bored gods who play with mortals for their sport.
System: Faithful fantasy genre simulation. Bell-curved d100 as a core mechanic. Action economy based on interruptability. Cinematic attack sequences in melee. Fortune Points tied to scenario endgame stakes. Challenge-driven Game Design.
The dark gods await.

Delete_me

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« Reply #633 on: April 11, 2019, 09:06:09 AM »
Interesting... but that definition, of being emergent instead of crafted, does that mean any game which has a semi-crafted narrative is no longer an RPG?

Quadrante

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« Reply #634 on: April 11, 2019, 09:15:20 AM »
Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1082975
Interesting... but that definition, of being emergent instead of crafted, does that mean any game which has a semi-crafted narrative is no longer an RPG?

No, just that D&Dno longer is an RPG...

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« Reply #635 on: April 11, 2019, 09:42:43 AM »
That was what I was thinking of, but it could fit others. :)

estar

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« Reply #636 on: April 11, 2019, 12:04:41 PM »
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1082965
Nonsense. Fiasco and D&D certainly have enough properties in common

Doesn't have a human referee hence not a tabletop roleplaying game.

EOTB

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« Reply #637 on: April 11, 2019, 12:35:30 PM »
The reason there is never a definition, is because everyone insists on a definition that includes what they themselves find appealing.  Which is impossible to apply broadly.
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Alexander Kalinowski

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« Reply #638 on: April 11, 2019, 01:00:22 PM »
Quote from: estar;1082985
Doesn't have a human referee hence not a tabletop roleplaying game.

If(!) that was a necessary prerequisite, then yes. But then again we were talking about supercategories, so that objection is beside the point.
Author of the Knights of the Black Lily RPG, a game of sexy black fantasy.
Setting: Ilethra, a fantasy continent ruled over by exclusively spiteful and bored gods who play with mortals for their sport.
System: Faithful fantasy genre simulation. Bell-curved d100 as a core mechanic. Action economy based on interruptability. Cinematic attack sequences in melee. Fortune Points tied to scenario endgame stakes. Challenge-driven Game Design.
The dark gods await.

estar

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« Reply #639 on: April 11, 2019, 06:26:46 PM »
Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1082990
If(!) that was a necessary prerequisite, then yes. But then again we were talking about supercategories, so that objection is beside the point.

If it is about characters interacting with a setting then it is roleplaying game.
If it a about achieving victory condition either cooperatively or competitive then it is a wargame
If it is about creating a collabrative narrative then it is a type of storygame
It not that complex with the observation that storygames being the newest of the bunch still diversifying.

Take fiasco when it boiled what its primary focus, the rules and sales pitch all point to everybody working together to create a narrative about capers using the rules of a game. To me because of the fiddliness of the rules it edges more to wargame territory but it not a wargame because it pretty freeform compared to most wargames I seen. It not a roleplaying game because it more about the narrative flow of a caper and making that happen with it rules. Although it has individual characters there little in the way of being a character doing whatever a character can do within the setting. Instead it strictly governed by using fiasco's mechanics and creatively interpreting the result. Which happens to be structured in a way that works very well with narratives about caper.

You can't look at the mechanics to figure out what a game is about and what category it fits in. You has to look at what advice the author give, what support material are supplied, what is the easier to do with the mechanics. And there will be issue with each of these. Poor design, the author thinking they are doing one thing but in actual play it turns out different, and so on makes the answer nuanced.

But while it nuanced for specific games, there are clear categories that are easily definied among them board games, wargames, roleplaying games, and storygames.

Alexander Kalinowski

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« Reply #640 on: April 12, 2019, 01:15:41 AM »
Quote from: estar;1083026
If it is about characters interacting with a setting then it is roleplaying game.
If it a about achieving victory condition either cooperatively or competitive then it is a wargame
If it is about creating a collabrative narrative then it is a type of storygame
It not that complex with the observation that storygames being the newest of the bunch still diversifying.

Well, everybody is entitled to their own set of definitions, especially in controversial matters.

Quote from: estar;1083026
Take fiasco when it boiled what its primary focus, the rules and sales pitch all point to everybody working together to create a narrative about capers using the rules of a game. To me because of the fiddliness of the rules it edges more to wargame territory but it not a wargame because it pretty freeform compared to most wargames I seen. It not a roleplaying game because it more about the narrative flow of a caper and making that happen with it rules. Although it has individual characters there little in the way of being a character doing whatever a character can do within the setting. Instead it strictly governed by using fiasco's mechanics and creatively interpreting the result. Which happens to be structured in a way that works very well with narratives about caper.

And yet both the publisher as well as wikipedia (plus rpg.net) tell me it's a role-playing game, so let's just say that your above definitions are heterodox.

Quote from: estar;1083026
But while it nuanced for specific games, there are clear categories that are easily definied among them board games, wargames, roleplaying games, and storygames.

If they were clear categories, then it should be uncontroversial. But it isn't. It's where you personally draw the line. Others may draw the line differently. That's often enough the case when two classes of entities both have characteristics in common as well as distinguishing properties.
Reminder: I personally don't care if calling extremely narrativist RPGs storygames as a separate category of games becomes orthodox.
Author of the Knights of the Black Lily RPG, a game of sexy black fantasy.
Setting: Ilethra, a fantasy continent ruled over by exclusively spiteful and bored gods who play with mortals for their sport.
System: Faithful fantasy genre simulation. Bell-curved d100 as a core mechanic. Action economy based on interruptability. Cinematic attack sequences in melee. Fortune Points tied to scenario endgame stakes. Challenge-driven Game Design.
The dark gods await.

Quadrante

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« Reply #641 on: April 12, 2019, 01:24:59 AM »
Why not use terms as:

Story centric RPG
Role centric RPG
Boardgame RPG

Et.c

S'mon

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« Reply #642 on: April 12, 2019, 02:32:31 AM »
Quote from: estar;1083026
If it is about characters interacting with a setting then it is roleplaying game.
If it a about achieving victory condition either cooperatively or competitive then it is a wargame
If it is about creating a collabrative narrative then it is a type of storygame
It not that complex with the observation that storygames being the newest of the bunch still diversifying.

Take fiasco when it boiled what its primary focus, the rules and sales pitch all point to everybody working together to create a narrative about capers using the rules of a game. To me because of the fiddliness of the rules it edges more to wargame territory but it not a wargame because it pretty freeform compared to most wargames I seen. It not a roleplaying game because it more about the narrative flow of a caper and making that happen with it rules. Although it has individual characters there little in the way of being a character doing whatever a character can do within the setting. Instead it strictly governed by using fiasco's mechanics and creatively interpreting the result. Which happens to be structured in a way that works very well with narratives about caper.

You can't look at the mechanics to figure out what a game is about and what category it fits in. You has to look at what advice the author give, what support material are supplied, what is the easier to do with the mechanics. And there will be issue with each of these. Poor design, the author thinking they are doing one thing but in actual play it turns out different, and so on makes the answer nuanced.

But while it nuanced for specific games, there are clear categories that are easily definied among them board games, wargames, roleplaying games, and storygames.


This seems so obviously true to me that of course no one will just accept this and shut the fuck up. :D

Lychee of the Exchequer

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« Reply #643 on: April 12, 2019, 03:43:04 AM »
Quote from: estar;1083026
If it is about characters interacting with a setting then it is roleplaying game.
If it a about achieving victory condition either cooperatively or competitive then it is a wargame
If it is about creating a collabrative narrative then it is a type of storygame
It not that complex with the observation that storygames being the newest of the bunch still diversifying.

Take fiasco when it boiled what its primary focus, the rules and sales pitch all point to everybody working together to create a narrative about capers using the rules of a game. To me because of the fiddliness of the rules it edges more to wargame territory but it not a wargame because it pretty freeform compared to most wargames I seen. It not a roleplaying game because it more about the narrative flow of a caper and making that happen with it rules. Although it has individual characters there little in the way of being a character doing whatever a character can do within the setting. Instead it strictly governed by using fiasco's mechanics and creatively interpreting the result. Which happens to be structured in a way that works very well with narratives about caper.

You can't look at the mechanics to figure out what a game is about and what category it fits in. You has to look at what advice the author give, what support material are supplied, what is the easier to do with the mechanics. And there will be issue with each of these. Poor design, the author thinking they are doing one thing but in actual play it turns out different, and so on makes the answer nuanced.

But while it nuanced for specific games, there are clear categories that are easily definied among them board games, wargames, roleplaying games, and storygames.


Spot on !

But you realize you're not allowed to make sense of complex matters in an intelligible and well-articulated way, aren't you ? This is the geeky gaming interwabs for Frell's sake - we're not supposed to wholeheartedly agree on anything ever ;-) !

Quadrante

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« Reply #644 on: April 12, 2019, 04:08:06 AM »
If there is no trolls, there is no RPG:s