Quote from: jhkim;1073022I would say Pundit's ideas should be given roughly the same amount of respect that he gives to story gamers, 4E fans, and other gamers he disagrees with.

I appreciate his free speech stance on this site, and he has some ideas that I agree with - but that doesn't mean that he is owed any more respect than what he gives.

This. Lots of users are here for the community talk, not for whatever Pundejo latest pastime is.

I come at the hobby from a different perspective than Pundit. And while I think this opinion of his is valid. I also disagree with it.

RPGs. Since their first incarnation. Have been trying to simulate the tropes and methodology of whatever fiction the individual game is based upon. And they have spawned an endless amount of novels and other forms of fiction. Based upon them.

To ignore the storytelling aspect of RPGs I believe is to render them as flat and lifeless as the wargames that RPGs spun off from in the first place.

What people here have referred here to as storygames are in fact simply another evolution along the path of the RPG. They chase the same goal. Simulating fiction in their own unique way.

However. There is a faction of the RPG community I believe that actively works against the continued evolution of the RPG. Those who do not want any kind of change or growth. Those who are afraid that the hobby will grow beyond them. I have in the past referred to this kind of gamer as a grognard.

For the hobby to continue to grow and evolve. The grognards need to be disregarded and left in the dust.

Quote from: jhkim;1073022I would say Pundit's ideas should be given roughly the same amount of respect that he gives to story gamers, 4E fans, and other gamers he disagrees with.

Frankly, the most annoying thing about Pundit's One-True-Way-ism is that, if you are a fan of 4E, it's actually more pleasant over at TBP where you can be banned for wrong-think, but can at least hold a reasonable discussion about the advantages of 4E's monster design or interesting mechanics for tactical set-piece battles without getting told you're doing it wrong because you don't roll your stats 3d6 in order and the players get to choose their own race which may not be right out of Tolkein.

Pundit keeps spewing about the evils of the SJWs and TBP and how this is a place that allows all points of view, but then practically seems to go out of his way to shit all over anyone who doesn't play exactly the way he says they should. He drives off people who could be allies on maybe 90% of things because they're not 100% in lockstep. In a lot of ways he's his own worst enemy and probably does more to hurt the cause than help it.

My opinion on this topic is that while I understand the point that playing a role-playing game is not the same thing as writing a story, the fact remains that the events you are playing through, particularly the dramatic turns of fortune that a series of good or bad rolls causes, lend themselves well to creating a story the GM and players will be inclined to recount.

While it's all in the heads of the participants, it's essentially the same dynamic that causes people to tell stories about their vacations to exotic locations and times they've attempted things they've never done before.

I mean, what IS a story if not an explanation of "what happened?"

What happened?

"We got together at the local tavern and decided to go explore the old ruins in the forest to see if there was anything valuable there. We ran into a band of goblins and negotiated for passage, then Eldrid nearly got his head taken off by a blade trap trying to get the crypt door open. We found a cool magic sword in there, but a bunch of skeletons animated when we picked it up and attacked us. It was a close call but Therik threw a bunch of flasks of burning oil on the ground and gave us time to reseal the crypt door."

Guess what? That's a story and the game created it.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035There is a faction of the RPG community I believe that actively works against the continued evolution of the RPG. Those who do not want any kind of change or growth. Those who are afraid that the hobby will grow beyond them. I have in the past referred to this kind of gamer as a grognard.

For the hobby to continue to grow and evolve. The grognards need to be disregarded and left in the dust.

I think it's fine for people to enjoy old games and old-school games. The problem is when they start trying to actively push other gamers against anything new.

To be fair, I think the same applies to a certain brand of new gamers who want to disparage and push against any old games.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035I come at the hobby from a different perspective than Pundit. And while I think this opinion of his is valid. I also disagree with it.

RPGs. Since their first incarnation. Have been trying to simulate the tropes and methodology of whatever fiction the individual game is based upon. And they have spawned an endless amount of novels and other forms of fiction. Based upon them.

To ignore the storytelling aspect of RPGs I believe is to render them as flat and lifeless as the wargames that RPGs spun off from in the first place.

What people here have referred here to as storygames are in fact simply another evolution along the path of the RPG. They chase the same goal. Simulating fiction in their own unique way.

However. There is a faction of the RPG community I believe that actively works against the continued evolution of the RPG. Those who do not want any kind of change or growth. Those who are afraid that the hobby will grow beyond them. I have in the past referred to this kind of gamer as a grognard.

For the hobby to continue to grow and evolve. The grognards need to be disregarded and left in the dust.

I don't agree with you most of the time, but this is not one of those times.  100%.  The hobby has grown and evolved, deal with it, or be left behind.

As Pundit pointed out, 5e D&D shows a lot of old-school influence. It has moved away from 4e's excessive emphasis on combat and brought in lots and lots of new players.

And it is clearly an immersive you-are-there game, not an authorial make-a-story game. Yes you can tell stories in hindsight about what happened - Pundit says that in the video! There's a lot of straw-manning going on here.

Given that Pundit is credited in the 5e D&D PHB I think this whole "left behind in the dust of history" trope is a bit silly. I'd say it was Forgeist play that is being left behind.

BTW, I like 4e D&D, but there are plenty of valid criticisms, and it doesn't work well as a regular D&D game. It's very iconoclastic and can give experiences both immensely satisfying and terribly boring. I don't care if other people hate it any more than I care if they hate Gygax's prose in the 1e DMG, another favourite.

My initial issue with the video was that the title is misleading. I think I now understand Pundits point to be that DnD is not for telling stories, that is stories that are decided from the start. But when you are playing you are definitely making stories, as everybody who have ever played have experienced: most of us are very found of retelling our characters greatest moments.

But what I still don't understand is if Pundits argument is against railroading, or in a broader sense against adventures where there is things happening outside the influence of the players. Take the Enemy Within campaign from Warhammer as an example: The players definitely have an influence on what is happening in the world, but on a larger scale the world is proceeding along, with wars and conflicts, regardless of their actions. So a story is being told and experienced, and at the same time actions from the players will make up new stories. Is this a good or bad example of roleplaying, according to Pundits arguments in the video?

Quote from: S'mon;1073051Given that Pundit is credited in the 5e D&D PHB I think this whole "left behind in the dust of history" trope is a bit silly.

Can't see the reasoning here. The fact he participated in D&D5 doesn't change his (loaded, one-true-wayist, delusional) opinions.

 

QuoteI'd say it was Forgeist play that is being left behind.

Look again: Cortex, Gumshoe, PbtA, Year Zero, Blades in the Dark, etc. games are all influenced by Forge ideas directly or indirectly. And other games arguably reached their same goals spontaneously, like Hillfolk and Chuubo. Even the new Vampire 5 is consonant to Forge ideas in a way previous editions never were before.

Honestly, there isn't a single school being "left behind" these days. Wherever style you look at, there are KSs being released for it, active communities and actual plays hapenning. It's the golden age now.

Quote from: RoyR;1073059My initial issue with the video was that the title is misleading. I think I now understand Pundits point to be that DnD is not for telling stories, that is stories that are decided from the start. But when you are playing you are definitely making stories, as everybody who have ever played have experienced: most of us are very found of retelling our characters greatest moments.

But what I still don't understand is if Pundits argument is against railroading, or in a broader sense against adventures where there is things happening outside the influence of the players. Take the Enemy Within campaign from Warhammer as an example: The players definitely have an influence on what is happening in the world, but on a larger scale the world is proceeding along, with wars and conflicts, regardless of their actions. So a story is being told and experienced, and at the same time actions from the players will make up new stories. Is this a good or bad example of roleplaying, according to Pundits arguments in the video?

Pundejo was (and still is, it seems) butthurt for the success of Forge ideas, and so it campaigns to try and disqualify it as RPGs.

Silly, I know, but that's all that is to it.

Quote from: S'mon;1073051As Pundit pointed out, 5e D&D shows a lot of old-school influence. It has moved away from 4e's excessive emphasis on combat and brought in lots and lots of new players.

A bigger change with 5E, IMHO, is the move away from char op that characterized 3.x. I'd wager far more of the D&D player-base today cut their teeth with 3.x than 4E, and you can see from complaints on forums that it's 5E lack of tools for char op that most frustrate a lot of long-term players, rather that its move away from tactical grid combat. I doubt the new wave of players brought in by 5E cares much about either.

Quote from: Haffrung;1073072A bigger change with 5E, IMHO, is the move away from char op that characterized 3.x. I'd wager far more of the D&D player-base today cut their teeth with 3.x than 4E, and you can see from complaints on forums that it's 5E lack of tools for char op that most frustrate a lot of long-term players, rather that its move away from tactical grid combat. I doubt the new wave of players brought in by 5E cares much about either.

  Given that 4E wasn't nearly as char-op friendly as 5E, and lost market share to Pathfinder, you may very well be right about the first. I think the second is more or less a given.

Quote from: SHARK;1073006Every game session I have is a small story, within the larger story. I have no idea how it is going to conclude, or proceed, it is all different and crazy--but that doesn't mean that a story isn't also happening, unfolding, as we go along.

This is presicely my point on the Title Subject!

Now on to the other issues ...

Quote from: SHARK;1073006Having said that, what's with all the hate and sneering towards Pundit? I don't understand that at all. You certainly are not required to agree with Pundit on everything, but if you are a person that hates Pundit, and has this sneering condescension towards Pundit, why would you be here, on his website?

To answer that, we have two different answers:

Quote from: kythri;1073011For the majority, I'd say it's because their assholes who know they can get away with it here, and they know they'd be banned for such behavior elsewhere.

Generally, the more rabid a response, the more full of shit it is, too.

Kythri, you are correct, but usually the people just want to voice their opinions and be frank about it.
Sadly enough, a very few thinks "being frank" means "insult others".
Like you perhaps just did. :cool:

Quote from: SHARK;1073016I actually watch and listen to every one of Pundit's videos. I respect the man. I respect him as a writer, game designer, game developer, and thinker. He's an educated man, with a lot of good insights to a whole range of things. All along, he doesn't strike me as being arrogant or pretentious at all. Fuck, I like smoking pipes too! I can just imagine a bunch of us gathered around together with Pundit, drinking fine coffee, smoking, discussing games and stuff. Can you imagine how fucking cool that would be? Pundit's a cool guy. It bothers me though, Kythri, that some members here are so rude, and sneering, you know? Go somewhere else then, jackass! LOL. You know? But you're right. They'd be banned in a flash anywhere else for stepping out of line in whatever way, huh? But here, they can just open their mouth, and turn the diarhea faucet on.

Well, i respect Pundit by now, but i can't always handle his videos, or his rants, but he seem like a cool guy in general despite that.
I have to admit, as i am typing this, i have not yet watched the video ... so why am i even typing this?
Because you are wondering why people like me are commenting while we haven't watched, and as such, you're addressing me, and i will answer:

Pundit, like everyone else, has flaws, but i like his ideals, and some of his ideas, but in this case, my response is because I DO NOT LIKE UNDULY SHITFLINGING OVER MY HEAD !
FROM EITHER SIDE !
Now to the other side of the explanation for "hating Pundit":

Quote from: jhkim;1073022I would say Pundit's ideas should be given roughly the same amount of respect that he gives to story gamers, 4E fans, and other gamers he disagrees with.

I appreciate his free speech stance on this site, and he has some ideas that I agree with - but that doesn't mean that he is owed any more respect than what he gives.

jhkim, because of the free speech stance, i do say Pundit actually DO deserve a bit more respect than he seem to give storygamers, 4ed fans and so.
The reason?
Because of said free speech, THEY CAN RESPOND TO HIM ON HERE ... as long as they remember to not derail any of the topics more than they usually gets derailed anyway
Or, in other words: He do show them more respect in reality than his rants implies.

Quote from: Doc Sammy;1073023I like Pundit's videos as well, which is why I subscribe to him on YouTube.

His most recent video was excellent and I say this as a fan of Vampire: The Masquerade.

I'm a fan of Old WoD and several iterations of the "Storytelling system" ... And Pundit has said before that he do count it as an rpg-system to my knowledge ... has something changed?

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035RPGs. Since their first incarnation. Have been trying to simulate the tropes and methodology of whatever fiction the individual game is based upon. And they have spawned an endless amount of novels and other forms of fiction. Based upon them.

I Agree.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035To ignore the storytelling aspect of RPGs I believe is to render them as flat and lifeless as the wargames that RPGs spun off from in the first place.

It is different kinds of games, they are not comparable.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035What people here have referred here to as storygames are in fact simply another evolution along the path of the RPG. They chase the same goal. Simulating fiction in their own unique way.

No, I agree with pundit in that "Storygames" are different from rpgs, and the difference is mechanics rather than direct appearance. It is a development that may result in rpgs getting better routines, yes, but they in themselves are different, and perhaps even have to be.
But i do not think they will replace rpgs as such.

Quote from: Darrin Kelley;1073035However. There is a faction of the RPG community I believe that actively works against the continued evolution of the RPG. Those who do not want any kind of change or growth. Those who are afraid that the hobby will grow beyond them. I have in the past referred to this kind of gamer as a grognard.

For the hobby to continue to grow and evolve. The grognards need to be disregarded and left in the dust.

Congrats, You are just as ignorant as Pundit, but in the other direction, it seems.

Quote from: jhkim;1073037I think it's fine for people to enjoy old games and old-school games. The problem is when they start trying to actively push other gamers against anything new.

To be fair, I think the same applies to a certain brand of new gamers who want to disparage and push against any old games.

Amen to that, brother.

Tribute to the Pundit and all Grognards:

[video=youtube;Ylyqoxh-cXk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylyqoxh-cXk[/youtube]

It's the nature of time
That the old ways must give in
It's the nature of time
That the new ways comes in sin
When the new meets the old
It always end the ancient ways
And as history told
The old ways go out in a blaze
Encircled by a vulture
The end of ancient culture
The dawn of destiny draws near

As a new age begins
The way of the warrior comes to an end
As a new age begins
The ways of the old must apprehend
It's the nature of time
That the old ways must give in
It's the nature of time
That the new ways comes in sin

Quote from: Haffrung;1073072A bigger change with 5E, IMHO, is the move away from char op that characterized 3.x. I'd wager far more of the D&D player-base today cut their teeth with 3.x than 4E, and you can see from complaints on forums that it's 5E lack of tools for char op that most frustrate a lot of long-term players, rather that its move away from tactical grid combat. I doubt the new wave of players brought in by 5E cares much about either.

Yup, good point. There certainly is a lot of whining!

I don't hate Pundit I sometimes don't always agree with his opinions. Though his rants and onetruwayism on how to play rpgs is annoying and tedious. Granted it's what I signed up for it does not mean I have to like it all the time. As for the OP I don't see why one cannot make and create stories with rpgs. I'm sure somewhere, somehow, someone has already done either or both. ( Looks around him ) Still here and reality and the hobby is still intact.